Episode 123 : Making the Land by Remaking Himself - Aleron Kong

Aleron Kong is an African-American physician turned WSJ Best Selling Author. His comedic fantasy opera, The Land, has eight novels and a main character that is an everyday kind of guy. The series has over 100,000 five-star reviews and has sold over 1,000,000 copies. Chosen as Audible’s Customer Favorite of the Year, it has wide appeal whether you are reading or listening. He has recently converted his novels into a webcomic. The author is also extremely proud of his fandom, which has raised over $150,000 for various charities over the past few years. Thirty-five of his fans have also gotten tattoos of his artwork, and three babies have been named after his characters. His fans are united by the words, “Through Service, Ascendance. Through Dedication, Transcendence.”

Audio Title: Ep123 - Aleron Kong
Audio Duration: 01:29:06
Number of Speakers: 2

[00:00:00] Intro: Welcome to the Heroes of Reality Podcast, a podcast about the game of life and the hero's journey we all experience. Let's jump in with our host Dylan Watkins, as he introduces today's guest.

[00:00:11] Dylan Watkins: Welcome young adventurers, Dylan here. And on today's podcast, I have Aleron Kong. He is an African-American physician turned WSJ best-selling author. His comedic fantasy opera, The Land, has eight novels and a main characters that is an everyday kind of guy. The series has over a 100,000 five star reviews and sold over a million copies. Chosen as Audible's Customer Fan Favorite of the Year, and my favorite of the year, it has a wide appeal to whether you are reading or listening.

He has recently converted his novels into a web comic. The author is also extremely proud of his fandom, which has raised over $150,000 for various charities over the past few years. Thirty-five of his fans have also gotten tattoos of his artwork. And three babies have been named after his characters. I'm curious what characters those are. His fans are also united by the words, "Through Service, ascendance. Through dedications, transcend... transcendence!"

[00:01:10] Aleron Kong:  Close enough, man. Close enough.

[00:01:12] Dylan Watkins: I know, almost had that. Epic drop off there. Hey brother, it's good to see you, man.

[00:01:17] Aleron Kong: What's up, man? Good to see you again. Thanks for having me.

[00:01:19] Dylan Watkins: Yeah, man. I appreciate you being on the show and I'm super excited to talk with you. You're my bedtime author. Like, as I go to sleep...

[00:01:29] Aleron Kong: Nice.

[00:01:30] Dylan Watkins: You know, I listen to...

[00:01:30] Aleron Kong: You think about me.

[00:01:31] Dylan Watkins: Yeah. Well, I think about Nick Podehl reading me like bedtime music. Much like last year when he had like the Christmas outfit on and he was reading like the secret chapters and stuff like that, I was like, "Oh, that's nice to fall asleep to."

[0:01:43] Aleron Kong: Yeah. It's a nice thing. Yeah.

[0:01:44] Dylan Watkins: Yeah, brother. So I am incredibly excited to talk to you about this.

[0:01:48] Aleron Kong: Thank you.

[0:01:49] Dylan Watkins: Talk about your heroes journey. You've been able to craft a very powerful world and do the power of words, a archaic form of world building, but it's so powerful and it's so profound. You've been able to create so many rave fans, me being one of them. I'm just super fascinated to learn just a little bit about your journey and how you've been able to get into the – become the... was it the godfather of LitRPG?

[00:02:22] Aleron Kong: Yeah, that's – it's close to the title. It's not worth going into, but yeah, some people call me the Father of American LitRPG and some people call me the devil because some people call me that. So, you know, what are you going to do.

[00:02:34] Dylan Watkins: The power of fame. It's a two-centered coin, no matter how high you rise, even Oprah's got haters, you know.

[00:02:41] Aleron Kong: Oprah has got a lot of haters. Yeah. I mean, I don't know, it's the kind of like the – it's funny getting into the haters, like and like just, you know, trolls and whatever. It's the kind of thing that sort of surprised me that I cared about, like at all, because I'm just very much like a zero fucks  kind of guy. But writing was so personal that it like opened up this little, like heart window that made me vulnerable, kind of thing. But you know, five years later you're just sort of like, all right, you know, what do you got? You know, go whack off in the wrong placement or something. I don't know. Yeah.

[00:03:16] Dylan Watkins: And it's so powerful. It's actually a really powerful lesson too, because generally, when you first start out with something and you feel very insecure about it, you have this identity attached to your creation. And then those – the way I can always tell that you're like a seasoned pro is that you don't care if people shit all over it, because you're just like, you make so much of it. You're like, it's just another baby out in the wild, "Go, be free, baby. Hopefully you don't get eaten by animals." you know?

[00:03:39] Aleron Kong: Yeah. You know, I was actually talking to my best friend about that, probably about like, maybe like 30 minutes ago. He was asking about like how I was feeling about like writing and I'm like, "You know, I'm really back in my joy." Because you know, sometimes it goes up and down and there was definitely a period of time where I felt almost like trapped by my success and trapped by the people's expectations and trapped by, you know, the few like negative reviews that come out and like maybe obsess over them, whatever. But I kind of been able to let all of that go in the last, you know, year or so. And I'm just sort of like in the joy, and it's like, it's coming across in the page. Like I can feel it, like in a strong way. So, yeah.

[00:04:17] Dylan Watkins: That's so powerful. On that note, can you talk to me about if you said that just happened last year and a half, what happened? Like what was that turning point? Did you – was there an incident that happened or was there a mindset shift? What caused you to turn that corner?

[00:04:33] Aleron Kong: Well, I mean, you know, 2020, COVID was a shit show, I think for, for the planet. I certainly had an easier time than some others. One, because I don't have any problem being at home. Two, because where I live is big enough that my girlfriend and I didn't need to be next to each other so she didn't kill me in my sleep, which I think was like a legit thing if we did not have like a good hundred feet between us and some walls. So like that was part of it.

But also it was just that, you know, I'd written – I had such a strange literary journey and I didn't understand how strange it was until years later. And I got to, really got to know other authors, really got to know some like amazing established authors, like Raymond E. Feist, Salvatore, Brandon Sanderson, like, you know, had been able to have some conversations with them. And I mean, because like for me, it's like I wrote my first six books in 14 months. Like it was just bam, bam, bam, bam, bam. And my books are minimum 30% longer than the standard, you know, sci-fi fantasy thing. And then like up to like, you know, two or three times longer. And then my seventh book, like is 450,000 words, so it weighs six pounds and it's, you know, I mean.

So like for me, it was just sort of this grind that came out of me almost like therapy because it was a balance for the decade plus that I'd spent becoming a physician. And the act of creation honestly saved me in a very real way, balancing out that kind of energy in my life. So the fact that I was able to write like that, it just sort of like poured out over a period of a year and a half to two years.

And then I like kind of like took a little bit of a break and was like, what's going on? What does my life look like? What do I really want? You know, maybe like an early mid-30s, you know, midlife crisis. So like a little bit, five years before everybody else. And then. I started thinking like, "Well, maybe I want to write another series." And then, so I put energy into that. And I wrote, put energy into like Book 8.

And then my books like did really, really well. Like I became a Wall Street Journal best-seller, but even the reception that I got for Book 8 was lukewarm compared to like, just like rave fans, you know, like, you know, "Here's my daughter" kind of reception that I had for all the other ones. And then that made me sort of wonder. And it was just sort of this, you know, very atypical journey that I'm balancing out with being in the hospital that I'm balancing out with, you know, the things that everyone else deals with, like six family members, you know, adjustment is there, career things.

And then COVID hits and it was sort of just this like stop mark for me. Because I had written my ninth book at that point, right when COVID was getting started. And everything shifted for me the same way it shifted for everyone else. And I was like, "You know what? I'm stressed out like everyone else, but why don't I just take this time to really figure out who I want to be, what I want my life to look like in these next phases, what I want the next 10 years look like." because I turned 40 on Sunday, actually.

[00:07:36] Dylan Watkins: Dang!

[00:07:37] Aleron Kong: So yeah, I mean, so like a lot of things, you know, happening. And so I come up with some ideas. I figured what I want from my 40s is three things. I want to have abs on a boat. You know, I just want to, ha ha ha you know, just like, you know, salt spray in the front, you know, drink, you know, like the whole douchey deal.

[00:07:56] Dylan Watkins: Yeah.

[00:07:57] Aleron Kong: I want to deepen relationships with people that I find – that are important to me and valuable to me. Like, you know, everything from just like, "Hey, let's grab beer and, and truth of shit to I'm really here when you need me." And then three, become a deeper version of myself. Like, you know, everything from skills, like learning to play the guitar, taking flight lessons, to reading books that are going to expand my mind, to working on the things about me that I don't – that maybe aren't like exactly who I want to be like, the elements are there, but like, if you had an idea about like the greatest man that you could see yourself being, how do you get from here to there?

[00:08:37] Dylan Watkins: Yeah.

[00:08:39] Aleron Kong: And so those are the three things that I'm basically working on. And then part of the other issue was sort of just letting go of the BS drama that you create for yourself in your own head. Letting go of like all this stress and all this pressure that you work up, that everyone, I think, most people feel no matter what their situation is and just being like, you know, "It's all cool, man. It's like hakuna matata." This is going to like, you know, people liked my stuff because it was me not because I was trying to adhere to some ideal, not because I was trying fit some conception that other people might have, you know? And so that's, that's, that's the journey, basically.

[00:09:21] Dylan Watkins: That's incredible. So you went from this super serious, super, like where you're literally on life's – like you're doing life's thing on a nice edge. And every day is incredibly serious, to this playful, whimsical personality driven, just kind of, if I could live in a fantasy world of my own creation, just pouring out of you, right?

And there is a lot of personality in what you do. When you, actually – the things that you create and the things that you make, I feel a lot of personality behind it. There's all these like esoteric references, pop cultural references. There's all these little moments where I feel like I'm becoming friends with the characters inside there.

And there's different characters that I like, and I have different relationships, you know, Richter, compared to Sion versus all these other characters throughout your book series, you feel like you're surrounded by a band of people. And I don't know if other people have this, because I do it a lot when I'm on journeys with them, like, I listen Audible. So I always feel like the characters, they're friends with me on my journeys in life, whether I'm going out for runs or other types of things. And I feel like I can feel your personality bleed through even like the shit talking shenanigans, zero fucking this, messing around this.

And I guess like for you, like, are there any points as you're writing it where you feel like you need to pull back and – or the things where have you noticed that when you're writing you feel hesitation in your writings and has that hindered you? Or, what are those – how does that work for you when you feel like you want to give it yourself and you have to pull back?

[00:10:56] Aleron Kong: So, honestly, I feel like that's been part of this reemergence that I'm feeling now. That initially I just wrote and I never expected anybody to ever read it. I was like, I always wanted to write a book, so why not? You know, and I found LitRPG and loved it. So I was like, why not? And so it just all poured out and I didn't care about, you know, I'm like, if you don't like it, that's okay.

But I don't know, I feel like even though I'm very much an independent person who resists the change of the world so much, I feel like we're all sort of inundated with this pathological niceness, correctness bullshit, honestly. And even though, like I said, like I resisted actively, I'm not – it's like an insidious creep into yourself that I think that unless you're cognizant, you can sort of start being apologetic about things that you shouldn't be apologetic about or worrying about things that aren't really worth your time and energy. Especially when there are like legit things that are worth worrying about and worth, you know, sort of fighting for in this world.

So the way that I've sort of done it is that I try to be, one, cognizant that this is something that I feel like may be affecting me and I don't like it. And two, I then just have the personal bravery to then push forward and still be myself come what may. You know, I mean like, you know, that doesn't mean there aren't things about me that don't need – that can't be improved. Like, I am a much nicer person now than I was several years ago, to be quite honest. There aren't things about me that can't, you know, sort of grow in strength, right?

Yeah. But I mean, I was having a conversation with this psychiatrist that I know. And she said, she made the statement that like, you know, anytime someone is offended, the other person is sort of in the wrong. And I'm like, no matter what it is. And she goes, yeah. And I'm like, "Well, what if you were offended by the fact that I'm wearing this red shirt?" And she goes, "Well, that's a silly response." And I'm like, "Then it's not everything. Why are, why is it such a blanket brush?"

But I feel like there's so many things where people are just sort of getting up in arms. And honestly, I think it's because of social media. I don't think it's everyone. I just feel like a couple people sound like everyone. When most people just want to like, you know, they want to have a beer. They want to have sex. They want to watch Netflix. And that's it. So I try to remind myself of that too, that the echo chamber that's out there is not really representative of everybody.

[00:13:33] Dylan Watkins: So, yeah. So, I mean, so you're talking about the thing about you're a good person. You're a nice person. You want to do nice things, but you don't want to be forced into a box. You want to call bullshit when you see it, you want to talk shit. Because it's – because you don't – like the worst thing is that the nice fake people that like go, "Hello? How you doing? Nice to see you." Like, and you feel like you're...

[00:13:52] Aleron Kong: Do you really want to do that? Are you sure? Like, I hate that.

[00:13:56] Dylan Watkins: Yeah. Yes. Yes. It feels like they have this like real world NPC mask on, right?

[00:14:02] Aleron Kong: Yeah.

[00:14:03] Dylan Watkins: They put it on, and they're like this, this is what – I hope people accept me with this mask. And so, the only thing about your books is you – I feel like you cut through a lot of that shit. And so...

[00:14:12] Aleron Kong: Well, I mean, I try to, and honestly, one of the things that I do is I reread my stuff and I'm like, "Oh my God, I can't believe I said that." But then I'm like, "Why am I scoffing that I can't believe that I said that? Like, I pretty much agree with this or I wrote it to be ridiculous or whatever."

So I don't know, honestly, I almost feel like it's a little bit of a war going on where I'm fighting – I'm putting energy out to keep myself like an individual. And the world is putting energy out to force you into a specific box. And I think a lot of us feel that way. It doesn't help that the true assholes use the same argument and I'm like, "No, no, no. You should stop doing that. That's not – that's not cool what you're doing." So I mean, it's tough and complicated, but it is what it's.

[00:15:04] Dylan Watkins: It reminds me of some things like it's like "Aleron, I love you. And I love your work and I'm disappointed by the action you took. Why don't you do X?" That kind of commentary.

[00:15:12] Aleron Kong: Yeah.

[00:15:13] Dylan Watkins: Where he's like, you're like, "Well, then just love me for being me. Can I just be me?" Yeah. And I think it's such a powerful thing because you want, you know, you want people to – you want to be liked but at the same time you want them to like you for you. And then there's this thing where you get all that pressure. So I think that's – it's a really interesting balance that you keep of keeping it real and going out.

[00:15:31] Aleron Kong: Well, I mean I've had a lot of girlfriends. I've had practice with that too, you know, so. Like everybody been– but like, I love this part, but that part, by the way I'm like, "No, no, no, it's all... you love this because there's the – I'm not like everyone else." And they're like, "Yeah, but not that much kind of thing."  So I mean it's – yeah, I mean, it's tough, like lit– I mean, literally the world does always try to push you into certain molds.

[0:15:58] Dylan Watkins: Yeah.

[00:16:00] Aleron Kong: And what's tricky is that some of those molds are good, right? Like, you know, not being a completely selfish human being is a good thing, right? But being a punching bag is a bad thing.

I remember when I was like six or seven years old, I was always this like super cerebral, like, you know, got beat up almost justifiably on the playground kind of kid, like just, just a super dork. And I remember asking my dad I'm like, "People have been around for a long time, right? Like thousands, thousands, thousands of years?" He goes, "Yeah." And I'm like, "Then why isn't there a book about how to do this life thing?" And he goes, "Yeah, it's fucked." He's like, "Yeah. It's just, you know, it's like it is. It's just a little fucked, you know, it is. I don't know."

[00:16:43] Dylan Watkins: And that segues perfectly into the, one of the reasons why, you know, we love video games. One of the reasons why we love like these Literary RPGs is because the rules are clear. All of a sudden, I know our friendship status. Are we friendly? Are we loyal? Are we soul bound? You know? And, and it's very clear cut. And the thing is – the challenge with a lot of this reality stuff is that we have to make our own rules. We have to make our own games. We have to add our own points. Right? And we, you know, we...

[00:17:11] Aleron Kong: Yeah.

[00:17:12] Dylan Watkins: And so, and I think that's one of the beautiful things that you create about the literary RPG stuff is it's life then becomes a game and then it becomes clear. And then you have more clarity on what you need to do. Like it – that's one of the appeals that I see for the LitRPG. What about you? Like, what do you think is the mass appeal for Literary RPG in this whole movement?

[00:17:34] Aleron Kong: I think that... Well, I mean, I think part of it suggests you know biological, like we get the dopamine rush when we hear the, the "chicheng" when we're playing games, we get the dopamine rush when we hear "tring" or some sound effects, whatever. So I think part of it's that we've come to love it on instinctual level. The same way, like I asked my mom why I love Chinese food. She's like, "Oh, because of all the MSG. You're addicted." And I'm like, "Oh, well." Lessons a little bit, but whatever.

But on a deeper level, I do think that the worlds that are created have an accountability and a sense of, and a fairness to them that I think that every adult that ever is worthy of the name recognizes that fairness is not something that's inherent in the world that we live in.

When I'm, you know, taking care of like, you know, my niece and nephew or any kid, honestly, the only four letter word that I ever consider coming out of their mouth, "Is this fair?" I'm like don't waste your time, kid. And then I tell them, "Fair only matters in how you treat people. You should try to treat people fairly." But you're just living in, you're just – you're setting yourself up to get punched if you're out there, like, "It's not fair!" because that's just not the world that we live in.

[00:18:50] Dylan Watkins: Yeah.

[00:18:51] Aleron Kong: And I think – what I think is amazing is that it's only people that aren't at the top that ever talk about fairness, because I think that people at the top absolutely know the world isn't fair and are struggling as hard as they can to keep it as unfair and imbalanced as possible. Like they got there by manipulating the lack of fairness that exists. So...

[00:19:12] Dylan Watkins: Well, and also it doesn't serve you. I mean, you, I mean, the – you're talking about that if you constantly complain about the world is not being fair versus just take an action, right? You create this – that victim mentality is really it's a, it really – it doesn't hurt the other person. It always hurts you. And like people – I've seen the people that scream, "Why isn't the world giving me what I deserve?" Right. That comment.

[00:19:37] Aleron Kong: Right. So much entitlement.

[00:19:38] Dylan Watkins: Yeah.

[00:19:40] Aleron Kong: Now, I mean, so with that being said, though, if we're really talking about the topic.

[00:19:44] Dylan Watkins: Yeah.

[00:19:44] Aleron Kong: Like there are institutionalized, like deeply ingrained cultural, like imbalances that allow certain groups to be marginalized, certain groups to be pushed forward.

And I personally feel like our best chance of surviving as a species is addressing these because sort of brushing under the rug as history has shown leads, always leads to issues, collapse of civilizations, dogs and cats living together, all that kind of stuff.

The way that I reconcile that in my head is I always look at issues on a micro and a macro level. On a micro level, meaning like the individual, like, yeah, don't waste your time telling me that it's not fair. Like if you need to like, you know, commiserate, like I'll pour you a shot and we can bitch for a little bit. But then what are you going to do about it? Because otherwise you're just losing and they're laughing to the bank.

Now on a macro level, right? Like let's say that you take a corporation that only has 2% of their senior staff are female. Right? I feel like macro solutions should be done to address that. We should, you know, work or let's take like, you know, let's take the Senate, right? Like it should ideally be a true representation racially, sexually, whatever of the actual population. And we should work to change that.

But in a individual like race, it doesn't mean that just because you're a woman, you should get more points or just because you're Black or whatever, or gay or whatever, you should get more points. But I do think we'd be better off as society if we put into place mechanisms that tried to get us closer to a true neutral. Does that make sense?

[00:21:33] Dylan Watkins: Yeah. Well, yeah, because what happens is this, there's this pattern of behavior where there is this ideal, there's this principle, right, represented by the people. And then smart, clever monkeys, a.k.a humans, find ways to manipulate the system and follow the letter of the law and then change the rules of the game to make it become unfair and biased, lobbying and all the other, diving into religion and politics right off the bat.

But really looking at it is it's that manipulation of the system where you look at the Senate and it's like, "How do they go in at a certain rate and come out with millions of dollars?" How do they – there's all these like weird things where they're in there forever and it's like, it doesn't seem fair, again, and use that word fair.

[00:22:10] Aleron Kong: Yeah.

[00:22:11] Dylan Watkins: But it's also one of the things that doesn't represent who we are. And that's what really – it makes us become – if we're playing the game of politics where we feel like our vote matters, my opinion matters, we, the people. But then there's basically this micro group of people that make all the decisions. It makes us feel – it makes us disconnect and disengage with playing the game. They're like, if I can't play it, I'm either going to scream at everybody or I'm just going to like disconnect, which is always like a – it feels like that is a really sad place to be. So it does seem like on the macro level, something we could do about that.

[00:22:42] Aleron Kong: I mean – and I get that. And so, I mean, like, let's take voting. Like, I always vote. I vote for various reasons. I vote because a lot of Black people had to die for my right to vote in this country. I vote because it is how technically the rules of the game are played. Right? But yeah, we know that gerrymandering exists. We know that fraud exists. We know that, you know, any number of abuses exists, right? So, you know, and basically like, I think it's very normal for we'll be like, "Well, why even try? Why even do it?" Right.

And I don't know, I guess the answer is not to get too existential, but I absolutely believe in the concept that evil thrives when good men do nothing. Like, you know, I feel like the things that we're concerned about are magnified because we have technology that's never existed before, but the innate nature of people is exactly the same. And I imagine at every stage throughout humanity.

[00:23:42] Dylan Watkins: Yeah.

[00:23:43] Aleron Kong: And I imagine, and any other planet in the universe where there's sense in life, there's always going to be a force that tries to just destroy and take and whatever. There's going to be the others that try to, you know, put more "good" into the world. And I don't know, if you're not trying, at least try a little bit, try in whatever way is going to do it for you. But that's, that's honestly a form of – that's a belief system for you that you should try.

[00:24:13] Dylan Watkins: I feel you on that one. The way that I think about that is there's a quote, I think it's Buckminster Fuller goes, "Society is a race between utopia and disaster." right? And the future isn't written, like we literally create our own reality. Like you, you have created your own reality. Your reality lives at my brain as memories. It's really weird that you've been able to craft that. And you've been able to share that with people and you've been able to create something that people then live and embody, and they have that service transcendence motto, which I did, I did try to adopt in my own company. I'm like, "Hey guys, I think I got a new model. What do you guys think about it?"

But you're right that – but people get feel like it's so big, why does it matter? But you're talking about the – if good men do nothing, that's how evil thrives. And so, is that why part of what you do is with the charity work? Because you said there's a – your community, people have rates? Can you talk a little bit about your charity work, what that looks like and kind some of the good that you've done?

[00:25:07] Aleron Kong: So I mean, it stems from the very, very first days of when I was first tapping out the first page of the book. I didn't really know what I was doing. Like I said, I didn't necessarily think that anyone was going to read it. It was more of an exercise, but I knew that I needed to put something out there. And then when I started finding my tribe, when I started connecting with readers, when I started seeing that, you know, they were enjoying it, I took a step back and I said, "Well, what am I really – what am I really doing with this?"

And I wanted to succeed because I'm an American. I'm capitalist. All this other stuff aside, like I am a Southern dude, beer drinking, boob watching, Van Damme loving kind of, I'm a dude. But I want to – I believe what one of my old history professors says that the only man that should be ashamed to die is the man that lived only for himself. So I wanted to have my books in some way be a mechanism for positive change.

And then, so I asked myself how that was going to happen. And I realized – and the first thing I came up with immediately was like, well, preaching is not going to work. No one likes that. I don't like that. Yelling on the internet has never done anything positive ever. So I'm like, "Well, what does change people's minds?" And I thought about it for several days. And what I came up with was systematic desensitization, right? That if there's this idea that I think is more in keeping with our better selves, then the way that I can promote that is by exposing people to it in a way that's not preachy, that's not down their throat, but is just in a way that they notice and hoping they take something away.

So an example is looking at men and women as equals in society. I never go off on that soapbox in the books, but I've got really, really strong warriors that are women and really, really strong warriors that are men. I've got absolutely stupid men. I've got absolutely stupid women. I like, I just put it out there unapologetically, which gives me some criticism where like, some men are like, "You woman loving whatever." And some women are like, "You woman hating asshole." and you know. And then some women that like then defend me and some men that, you know, it's just sort of crazy.

But that's basically what I do. Like, you know, I – the reason that I put – use my real name in the books that I put, write a Black man character and make sure that I stress that he's Black is because sci-fi fantasy has pretty much have been very homogenous as. you know, White men, for at least most of the books that I read growing up. And I still think basically as far as what we're seeing on Amazon and Audible. And there's nothing inherently wrong with that, but it does mean something to me that people that may have a conception about, a negative conception about being Black must also then say, but there's this author that I really like.

And young children of color or other people of color can say, "Wow! There's a hero that I like that looks like me." And it's something that I personally have experienced because when I saw Black Panther, sort of just seen a hero that was Black. And not only Black, but comes from an ancient, powerful civilization. It gave me a pride that honestly affected me in a deep way because it's like, "Why did I have to wait 35 years to have this feeling?" And it's the kind of thing that if you have it regularly, it means nothing. It's like, you know, offering dick to a woman. Like, you know, they're like, "I got a million of those. This means nothing to me." But you know...

[00:28:46] Dylan Watkins: Waves and waves of it. Yeah.

[00:28:47] Aleron Kong: Like, a beautiful woman comes up to you and she's like, "Hey, I just want to have amazing sex with you. And then bring your nachos." You're like, "This is the best day of my life!" you know? So yeah, I wanted the books themselves to be a positive thing. And then when I started, you know, making revenue from it and when I started having this social audience, I was like, "Well, what can I do with this?" And I'm like, "You know, one, I'm going to make this a safe space where people can come."

So, that is why there are Reddit groups devoted to hating me because we banned a lot of dickheads. But also then it left people that can just sort of come around, have a good time, take a breath of fresh air and none of the toxicity that is typically on the net. And then I was like, "What specifically can we do?" And then we write, we do options, every month and a half to two months to help people that have suffered from recent disasters, breast cancer, you know, research, you know, things like that. Food banks was most recent that I did.

[00:29:47] Dylan Watkins: See, that's epic. And I'll talk about the toxic culture, but yeah, that mean that the whole, like women live in the bounty if every guy goes, do something there. It's like a Chris Rock joke where he is like, "Would you like some dick?" Right. There's like that. And every – it happens over and over again. So it, and then for me, a white male, I'm used to seeing superhero figures. It just it is.

And honestly, like, I didn't even recognize that Richter was a Black character until Sion said, "I didn't know, people of your color could blush like that." And I was like, "Oh!" I was like, "Oh!" My mind was just like, it changed, I was like, "Okay, carry on." And the story kept along and I was like, "That's amazing." But, I mean, I'm sure there's, I'm sure there's young African-American boys and girls that read that, that idolize that character that want, you know, how do I create my own community? How do I create my own village? How do I help these people out? How do I...

And I love the unity that you bring into the book where you have gnomes and elves and all these other people. And they're all – hopefully, I'm not giving these spoilers away. My goal is to be no spoils on this one. So that's my entire goal. I get there, just like, just go, shhh. But that unity of bringing everybody together, because we are strong together because there's all of these different mindsets and diverse opinions coming together. Otherwise you do get that homogenized viewpoint where you're just like...

[00:31:00] Aleron Kong: Yeah.

[00:31:00] Dylan Watkins: You're all hitting with the same note and it just doesn't have the same zeal. So I love – when you're talking about creating culture, both in the book and inside the Mist Village, different groups that you have. I know you have a Facebook group and things like that. What are the different values that you hold for communities, right? And what are the things that you hold and what are the things that you repel? So you have kind of a clear line of the ins and the outs of that.

[00:31:24] Aleron Kong: Yeah. So on one, I'll say that, you know, your reaction that you didn't even notice he was Black at first, and then you did, and then you kept moving on, was exactly the tone that I'm trying to hit. Right? Like, I don't want it to be a big deal that he's Black, one way or the other. I just want him to be Black because I'm Black. Like it's like I, when I'm hanging out, I don't want him to be like, "Hey, the Black guy is here." I'm like, "Yeah, thanks. Exactly. I'll take the free drink." But you know, I just kind of want to watch the game kind of thing.

So I'm glad that that tone was struck. But yeah, like, I mean, basically again, I'm just – I use the various fantasy races as a, you know, algorithm metaphor for the, you know, races that exist among humans, you know, with various colors and national boundaries and whatnot. Again, to do it in a systematic desensitization way so it's never really just down someone's throat.

[00:32:24] Dylan Watkins: Yeah.

[00:32:25] Aleron Kong: But in the Mist Village, like social media, sort of like, you know, culture that I've been able to sort of coalesce with other good people. I mean there's not a lot of rules. You know, it's like, "Don't be a dick. And if you are asking me to define it, you're probably a dick." Like, we all know when there's a joke that's cool. And there's a joke where like, it's going to get you punched in the face that there's a man big enough to do it. Don't be a dick. And that's pretty much it.

I don't allow people to come in and be like, "I'm offended by..." and I'm like, "You got to go then because he's making fun of you and joking around and that's what we do." But I'm also not going to allow anyone to come in and just, you know, push some BS agenda. I try to keep it almost completely free of politics, religion, hot button kind of thing, because you know, everyone just wants to argue as soon as it happens.

But at the same time, I do take the time to touch on very sparingly so that it's like a power that I use that. So only when it really matters for things that are coming up, like I am – I think it's that shit crazy that COVID is a political issue. It's not. It literally physically exists. And so I tell people all time, "Please get vaccinated. It's not – I'm a doctor. It's not a thing. I want you to survive. And if you don't get vaccinated, you might die." So, I mean, I push that.

Similarly, I think the only other one that I've really touched on in the last several years was Black Lives Matter and trying to explain it in a way that perhaps a lot of my White audience didn't get that like, I understand that it may feel like an attack on you for being White, and that's because people are really bad at labeling things and I get it.

The same way when my female friends in the past would talk to me about how they felt unsafe walking at night, when they talked about the fact that it's a male dominant society, I felt attacked because I'm like, "I'm not oppressing you. I'm not the one doing blah, blah, blah." And I kind of realized that like I am being a selfish asshole making your suffering about me.

[00:34:36] Dylan Watkins: Yeah.

[00:34:37] Aleron Kong: And you're really just asking me for help because you're scared. And I was like, that's basically what's happening here with the Black Lives Matter Movement. They're just like, "Please care that we're scared and that we're suffering."

[00:34:49] Dylan Watkins: We matter too. And that...

[00:34:51] Aleron Kong: Yeah, right?

[00:34:51] Dylan Watkins: And that's what that was about. And I did, when you, when you said a – if you have to ask it is, you're probably our dick and I looked at myself, I'm like, "Am I a dick?" I'm like, "Wait a second." I was like, "Uh-oh, uh-oh." I was like, "Uh-oh." And I felt the need to defend myself. And I was like, ah, I'm like, "I swear, no."

I was – is someone who I build communities and I build games and experience and other things where I'm curating communities. And there's always, especially in games, you have all this toxic culture and social media, these toxic people come in. So I'm always curious that, like, how do you balance out, where you're not like this, you know, authoritarian dictator says like, "This is it." And like you knew – and it becomes a power trip.

But at the same time, like, because you want that organic. You want people not to be fake and you don't want people like that. You don't want that workplace culture either where everyone's got that mask on. They can't be real. They can't have that real talk when, you know. But at the same time you don't want greasy dudes coming up and like making girls uncomfortable. Like you don't want that either. So like, it's a weird balance. And I get the – that "Don't be a Dick policy." I was just trying to like, it helps me to try to understand it a little bit more when you try to...

[00:35:51] Aleron Kong: I get it. And I think it goes to like what I was – like when I asked my dad, you know, when I was a little kid like "Why isn't there a guidebook?" Because life is an art. It's never going to have a specific set of criteria and you sort of got to do your best. And so, we just try to do our best and like, I've got awesome moderator, shout out to Evan who is just like a bulldog and he does just like ban people when they're trying to be dicks. And it's – I mean, like there's things where it's like, there were a bunch of really toxic authors in the group at one point in time. And I tried to kumbaya because I was like, "Don't be overbearing, Aleron. Be a nice or whatever."

And I forgot one of the very simple lessons of the schoolyard. No, you punch a bully in the face. No matter what psychiatrists say, they're not going to – you're not going to reach them through song. You beat the shit out of them and then they leave you alone. And ideally, you beat the shit out of them and they'll leave all the other kids alone because there's a share of himself. And I don't think that that's ever been different in the history of humanity. I think there's always been people that just sort of want to get along. I think there's been predators that try to prey on them and there's been protectors, ideally, that protect the regular people from the predators.

And so we just try to do the same thing. We don't like want to be a bulldog kind of whatever, but also we're not wasting energy. Part of the thing is like, we used to sort of like go back and forth about like, "Oh, what does this thing mean? And da, da, da." Now, I'm just like, "No, no. He's being a dick. You're rid of him." Like he's being a passive aggressive dick. And the whole point of passive aggressives that you can sort of like, you know, say it, but no, I think you're being a passive aggressive dick, so you're out of here. And so then just go to Reddit and complain about me like everybody else. Like, I just don't care. I just don't care.

[00:37:31] Dylan Watkins: Ready to help onboard you in that direction. There's a team America that one of my favorite speeches of all time at the end of team America, he's like, "There's dicks, there's pussies and there's assholes." And they have this whole thing where you're going around the world and talking about it's like – cause like it's like, it's people say it's never okay to respond with violence, you know, it's – you know, you can respond with love and kind and things like that. And then you feel like...

[00:37:53] Aleron Kong: And see, I just don't agree with that. I don't agree with that. I think that every – I mean, every conflict, pretty much every conflict ever has been resolved with violence. It depends on why you're committing that violence. It's like, are you drawing a sword to kill someone? Or are you drawing a sword to save a life? Because there are people that just want to kill. There are people that just want to take. And we need people strong enough to stand in their way. And I think the only people that would say otherwise are people that have been lucky enough to not really been exposed to some of the uglier parts of life yet.

[00:38:28] Dylan Watkins: Yeah. And it's funny because like I do in the back of my head, I have like a running dictionary of your different books. And when Sumiko asks Richter, "Why should I actually be the healer of your village?" I'm hopefully not spoiling things. I'm sorry.

[00:38:44] Aleron Kong:  The books have been out forever. It's fine.

[00:38:46] Dylan Watkins: Yeah, but it talks about, it talks about– it talks about being the meek shall inherit the earth and so that's not necessarily true. It's actually, it's more true that you need to fight for what you want. And if you don't, then the strong will dominate it. And unless you have another strong person – because one of my beliefs is this whole podcast is based around the heroes of reality. And I believe that both heroes and villains have power, they have great power.

[00:39:09] Aleron Kong:  Yeah.

[00:39:10] Dylan Watkins: Heroes use it to serve people while villains use it to actually take from people. And so both those things are true. And so, and then, so you're right. When you're talking about taking up the sword, are you defending or are you enslaving? And it depends on what the intention is.

[00:39:24] Aleron Kong: Yeah.

[00:39:25] Dylan Watkins: So that resonates a lot. Shifting gears a little bit here. One of the things I'm incredibly curious about is about you have this ability to build these incredibly powerful worlds, these world building abilities, and you not only have done it with The Land, you've done it with – you have God's Eye and you have in these book series that you're rolling out with.

I'd love to learn just a little bit about your process. Like how you actually go through and be able to craft these worlds and how you be able to, and how you're able to like, what does that look like for you to be able to track it? Because there's a lot of things – I'm assuming there's a lot of people that try to call you on like, "Oh no, that's a combo point. That's plus 0.5 and half, plus a point – you know. So what does it look like you to be able to create these worlds and make them coherent?

[00:40:18] Aleron Kong: So I've always felt – so I've always been a major sci-fi fantasy fan. So one, I've absorbed pretty much all of the content that any other major sci – any like major nerd sci-fi fantasy fan, definitely read more than you played football kind of kid, did like all that, you know, old dusty bookstores, you know, kind of thing. So, I mean, I'm very much like I put the 10,000 hours to be a "expert" as far as that it's part of me.

So, the raw material is in there, I think. But the way that I specifically make my worlds is I've always thought that the most important part about sci-fi fantasy, even though the fun parts of the dragons and the magic, whatever it's that we're able to make these fantastic situations that allow us to examine our humanity in a greater way. It's like a lens up to us. And then that's what can ground it and really connect other people with it.

So, The Land is really about the magic system that makes it specific for LitRPG. It's that unlike a lot of games where it's like you can – you get a class and then you can do anything with it that anyone else with that class does. Instead, no, no, you're born with a certain affinities for this. You might be able to be an amazing dancer and an amazing baker, but will never be good at swordsmanship no matter how hard you ever try. And I think that's absolutely true in general about the world that we live in here. I could still study particle physics until I'm blue in the face. I would never be Stephen Hopkins, right?

I use that old example of like Mozart and Salieri. Both were amazing, but one of them just had the juice, and so he made it to master rank and the other dude didn't. So for me, when I figured out that that was a concept that I wanted to expand upon, everything grew from there, right?

With God's Eye, what I'm really looking at is that there's an inherent meaning in the things that we embrace. That, you know, there is – that there are bonds to be in a God of time that will keep you for doing one thing. There's bonds to be in a God of vengeance that will then lock you into whatever. And that there's some variation in that, but there are inherent natures that we possess that can then be struggled against and can also be guided a little bit by our decisions. But it's still the what of what we are in addition to the who of what we are. Like, I am a man that has a certain amount of chemicals that release from my brain because I am a man. What I choose to do with that is the who, the chemical part is the what.

And so that's really the concept that I'm going into with God's Eyes saying that, like, you know, these are your chosen people. These are their characteristics. This is why they're going to be acting like that. And then being able to have them compare, contrast, and clash with other ones. And again, in a way to sort of better look at who we are or what our society is, that kind of thing. And in the meantime, lots of dick jokes and cool magic and stuff.

[00:43:36] Dylan Watkins: I like that. It takes the tension off. It's very industrious of you. Yeah. And so, looking at that, what I think is really cool about this, so what you do is you, you find like, What's an idea you want to explore? What's a meaning you want to explore? What's a concept you want to explore? And you expand upon that. So in the – you're talking about affinities and spell casting, and then you say, "Okay, what would this world look like with these affinities?" And then, so you, and so you look at that as the center point, the fulcrum, and then you expand outward around the world, then you wrap the characters, then it's okay.

Well, what if you took this type of character and you just dropped him in this environment? And you forced him through this and you forced him, okay, how would that shape him? Well, how would that change him? How would that change his soul? How would that change his character? How would that change how he reacted?

And then with God's Eye, you know, what you're talking more about that is almost like, if you look at like the old, the gods of old, right? They were all – they all had personalities, they were basically us, right, with godly powers. That's what Zeus and Hera and Hades, all these people where there. Some were lovely, some were dick, some were this, some were that, but they felt like – it felt like a family.

[00:44:40] Aleron Kong: Yeah.

[00:44:41] Dylan Watkins: You know, and it really reminds me of like, I don't know if you ever played the game Hades. I don't know if you've ever heard about it at all.

[00:44:48] Aleron Kong: A long time ago. Long time.

[00:44:49] Dylan Watkins: Long time ago. Yeah. Yeah. But it's an expansion of these gods that they all have personalities. You can all connect with them. So as you write that down, so let's say that's the cor – that's the cornerstone of your idea that you want to expand upon. Do you then – just working this in my head so I can visualize it. Do you then put that into like a flow chart or a mind map and then expand that outwards? Or do you just drink a couple bottles of liquor and then stream a consciousness late at night? Like, what does that, what does that look like?

[00:45:15] Aleron Kong: More of the second one. More of just the – you know, just the Hemingway fingers scotch, let's do this shit, you know, sweaty and tapping away. And honestly, I feel like I do the charts a little bit. Like, especially if it's late at night and I'm about to pass out. I turn the – my thing is I've been writing and then I'll hit the cap locks key and then just bang out every idea that's in my head. And the next day it's like, what's this waffle pants? What the fuck does that even mean? I just don't even know. And honestly, I'm pretty sure I have undiagnosed ADD, so just sitting down and forcing the words out and like making a rubric for it is like my least favorite part. I really just wish I could just onto the page more than anything else, because I get distract on squirrel. Like I just get distracted, like regularly.

But yeah, no, I mean, so I mean, the way that writers usually talk about it is, are you a pantser or are you a plotter? Do you go by the seat of your pants or do you plot every single thing out? And I guess the best way for me, and I think most people are in the middle, but the way that I do it is that I always know about the major and minor land – or sort of like way points I'm trying to hit along this journey, right? Like I wrote the end of The Land before I published the first book.

But what surprises me is that by being true to my characters and by having a system that I have to honor, otherwise it comes off as false is that as opposed to going from here to here in a straight line, it meanders, you know, and then it's almost surprising and fun for me. And occasionally I don't end up here, I end up here and then I'm like, "Okay, well, what does that mean for the rest of it then?"

But I allow for that because I think it makes more of an honest story. And like, you know, you said my goal was to have an every man kind of person in this fantastic, you know, token as, you know, like fantasy world kind of thing. But, you know, have him just be a regular dude, making regular dude decisions, making regular dude mistakes, that kind of a – yeah.

[00:47:22] Dylan Watkins: Absolutely. And I can, I can feel the regular dude-esque inside of there. And especially when it comes to like questionable moral decisions where he goes, "You lost a bet, huh? Hmm. I don't, hmm. You know what? I'm going to be noble here. You know what? It's okay. I'm going to let this go." And there's those situations because you – there's that guy instincts were like, "Oh, I want to but no, no. This is – I'm going to take the no." So I like that, that inner conflict that you build as you, as you go through this.

And, one more question about the writing. I'm going to shift gears here is, how do you get yourself to actually sit down and do the work? Or what advice would you give to people because it's – this is your job. You are a professional. So being a professional is doing what you love to do when you don't love to do it. So how do you get yourself to do that? And what insights? Because, for other people that are looking to be consistent with something like that.

[00:48:14] Aleron Kong: What was it? The old saying is that the first step in writing is just to sit down and write. I think it depends on the kind of person you are. At every stage of my life, the people that were in the previous stage are shocked that I got there. Like my friends from college – like my friends from high school were shocked that the college that I went to and what I did. And my friends in college were shocked that I became a doctor. And then my friends that were doctor were shocked that I would stop medicine and write fantasy stories.

Like, I've never really fit. I've never really fit. And honestly, I really like that about me because I feel like most people are kind of basics and I don't want to be basic. So, for me, I just, I honor what's inside of me. Right? Like, if I feel like writing, I do. If I get distracted, I do. I think the most important thing is not to waste anger on self-recrimination. Right? Like if you want to write, sit down and write. And if it only lasts for five minutes, it lasts for five minutes today. Maybe you'll do 10 minutes tomorrow, but don't waste an hour worrying about one.

[00:49:24] Dylan Watkins: That's so powerful. Wasting energy on self-recrimination, wasting anger on shame and guilt and, and worrying all that fun stuff. I mean, it seems like, one of the things you just talked about and I'm going to bring this full circle on this conversation here, is I mean, we talked about early about your ability to let go of the haters, your ability to kick out the assholes, your ability to say, "Fuck it. I'm going to punch a dick in the face because that's what a dick deserves."

Your ability to say, "I don't care what people – I care, but I don't care, you're not going to have an effect on me." And that ability to – your willingness to let go of whatever identity people think about you to step into a new role and following that has led you to a place of joy. You've talked about, you've hit this pocket of joy. And you're talking you hit this pocket of joy. Can you talk to me about like hitting this pocket of joy and what that looks like now for you and what do you think the cause of that joy is?

[00:50:18] Aleron Kong: So there's an amazing movie called Lost in Translation with Bill Murray and Scarlet Johansen, just gorgeous. And you know, older guy, younger woman, they're spending time together in Tokyo. And there's a scene where she says, "What's it like being older?" And he goes, "Well, if you're lucky, you get to know yourself a little bit more. And because you know yourself more, the outside world is not able to shake you on a regular basis as much as it did before."

And so you don't have to feel like you're unstable. And having that surety in yourself makes a lot of other things possible. It makes a lot of other things potentially beautiful. It can also make you feel very doubtful. If you don't like what you're seeing, but it sort of comes along with that maturity.

Like I said, I'm a much nicer person now. When I was in medicine, I was sort of an angry dick. I never came across as cruel, but I very much came across as intolerant of people that weren't doing what I considered to be good enough. Or, like, why can't you try harder? Like I'm in here early. Why aren't you here in here early? I'm taking care of this patient. Why aren't you doing it? And I was always, you know, having issues with people. And I always felt crazy justified though, because I was right. I mean like, technically, I was.

But one of the biggest turning points for me and my emotional journey was realizing that being right is not the same thing as being helpful. And that was a massive shift for me because I was just like, "I'm right. So why aren't you falling in line and stop being the stupid, whatever." And it's like, that's not being helpful. And honestly, for other people that might be like, obviously, but that was a major turning point for me, right?

So being able to reconcile the logic with the illogical emotional component of myself and other people sort of gives it, gives a peace. It lets me stop stressing out about myself and it lets me stop stressing out other people. I was an intolerant dick when I was in medicine because I was putting stress and anger on my myself. And the only way that I could reconcile that was by saying, "Well, this is just the – this is just the cost of working at this level. And I'm not going to accept eight – if I can do this a hundred percent, then you got to be the 80%."

And it's like, "I don't have to do this. I don't have to eat all of this stress and fear and worry and doubt and constantly feel like I'm running down a hill and what happens if I ever stop and look around, right?" Like you can stop and look around. And it's okay if you don't like what you're seeing. And it's okay if you change. And it's okay if you made a mistake. And it's okay to let other people help you, you know?

I think we – I think a lot of people don't ever really, really, really look in the mirror. But if you do and you accept the good and the bad and you work to make more good, yeah, the rest of the world just has less energy, less power over you.

[00:53:53] Dylan Watkins: What I love about what you said right there is, I just want to, I'm just going to come back over the top and this is what I'm hearing you say. What I love about what you're talking about is this, is that, often when we start at a younger age, right. We're trying to strive, we're trying to achieve, we're trying to do this. But there's a piece of us that doesn't believe in us. There's a piece in us that doesn't love us. There's a piece of us that doesn't accept us. And we put in all this energy and effort. And then when we see other people not putting in their full effort, we see that in ourselves. And so we hate them because we hate ourselves. We don't accept them because we don't accept ourselves.

But then as you go through and you're constantly letting go of all of these identities, there's a certain nugget in your soul that goes, "I believe in me and everything else, no matter what happens, I'm still cool. I'm still okay. Everything's still going to work out. None of these people have effect on me. It's all about whether or not I'm good with me and whether or not I'm doing the stuff for me that lights me up and whether or not I'm living to my own standards, my own codes, my own stuff."

And if that's the case, the world can't shake you. You're friends that, that say, "You can't do that. You can't leave medical to go write books." None of the things will affect you because you have this, you have this deep belief in yourself. And you know that you're going to be okay, no matter what anybody else does. And you know that you have this love and peace, which causes this creation and abundance of joy to become essentially unshakeable as you move through this world.

[00:55:23] Aleron Kong: I mean, I think that that was a very good paraphrase. The only thing that I would, that I would shift about it is that there's no, it's like, there's no guarantee that you're going to be okay. Right? You have to be okay with the fact that like, no matter how hard you try things still might not work out. That no matter how hard you – like I was saying earlier that like, I'm a very –I consider myself a very self-assured and very solid person. And I like who I am. And I'm very clear about who I am.

But I'm not immune to all the horrible things on Facebook. And you know, all the horrible things on the local news. And the ridiculous things that people speak authoritatively about when they're not educated in the world. Like it, it still affects me to a certain extent, but I'm lucky enough that I've got a sense of self and a support network that when I get a little shaken, it's not a real shake. It's not really going to get me, but it still has an effect, right? So it's like, if I was telling someone there, like, "How do you get there?" I'd be like, "Well, just recognize, accept that struggle is part of life, but it doesn't mean that you need to feel helpless in it, like you may feel now."

[00:56:47] Dylan Watkins: Well, and yeah, and what you're talking about with, and I really appreciate the clarity. This is great. This is great back and forth. One of the things you're talking about right there is this, is that the hatred and the blame and the criticism, it's not going to help you. You might be right that that person is not working hard or whatever things, but that energy that you bring, isn't going to help the situation. And ultimately, it's not going to make you feel any better for you to get to where you want to go, because people feel like, "Oh, if only I get here, I'll be happy. If only I get here, I'll be good."

But you shitting on people along the way is not going to be like, "Oh, if I shit on them for not doing their work, they're going to work harder. And they're going to thank me. Yeah, I did great." Right. It doesn't serve you. So, whether or not you do hit that goal or you don't get that goal, if you bring that energy, that dickness to the energy, then it doesn't – it's not going to ultimately, whether or not you make it is irrelevant. You're going to be a dick if you get there or not. So you might as well enjoy the journey, like along the way and be okay with it. That's...

[00:57:48] Aleron Kong: Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of people have that crabs in a barrel. They're basically like, "I'm miserable. So I'm going to make this person miserable and they may feel slightly better, but they don't recognize that they're making this person miserable, who's going to make someone else miserable, who's ultimately going to make the original person miserable." And it's just this like really negative cycle that anyone that's worked in an office that they hate probably understands.

[00:58:12] Dylan Watkins: And that's a thing – one of the things is there's this thing where like, people will prefer to be in pain and be in fear and be in that than change. They'd rather be in suffering. They'd rather have this situation where they – that instead of like, I have a dream to – I want to be a writer. Let's just say, I have a dream to be a writer. But because I have the fear and doubt of quitting my day job and going fully and committed to it and living off food stamps and figuring out what I need to do to make this happen, I'm going to shit on Aleron because he had it so easy. Oh yeah, you did the, you know, whatever X, Y, and Z. You know, be because of their inability to take action, it's easier to shit on you because they can't look in the mirror for what they need to do. So...

[00:58:56] Aleron Kong: Yeah.

[00:58:58] Dylan Watkins: Could you talk just a little bit about some of the, for people that think your road was super easy and all you did was just turn on a thing. Can you just give some of your, what I would call threshold guardians along your journey?

[00:59:09] Aleron Kong: Yeah, man, I mean, well, first of all, like I said, I'm a physician, so I worked more than a hundred hours a week for seven years in a row. And then I worked nights for five years after that, dealing with life and death decisions on a daily basis while struggling to deal with very unhappy people, because they also hadn't slept in the last two decades. So like, yeah, it's not – that wasn't easy.

And then writing, writing came a lot more fluid for me than it did for what I hear a lot of other people. But when I was building – when I first came out, there was no social media. There was no platform for LitRPG for my genre. So, I was basically working three full-time jobs. I was working full-time at the hospital. I was writing these books with a lot of, you know, the free time, the time that I had in between shifts.

And then I'm building this community, which involved, like, I mean, literally, probably about 40, 50 hours a week of work building just the community for about three or four years, and running into personality traits that are the same, like the same, the worst people everyone else has come across were these – were also the worst people that I came across. Like they're not the same people, but they have the same things.

Like, one author that cussed me out because he was like, "I don't think that you should be able to run this group." And I'm like, "Well, I created the group." And he was like, "Well, I don't care. Give it to me." And I'm like, "No." And then like, so we start yelling at each other and I'm like, "Am I a crazy person? Like, how is this happening?"

Or, other people that, you know, uh, I mean, it's – like, honestly I always say like, it's insane. Like I write about elf, pits and fireballs, and I have enemies. I should not, I mean, I should not have enemies writing about the things that I write about. It's like the creators – it's like the creators of Rick and Morty, like, you know, having a blood feud with some, with like family guy. Like it doesn't make any sense.

[01:01:16] Dylan Watkins: Yeah.

[01:01:17] Aleron Kong: I'm like, this is, there are real things to be upset about and afraid about in this world that deserve our attention. And yet, like, I legit have people that like, like want me like gone from this earth, which is a, an insane thing to think about. Like, I'm writing these books. There's not an oil pipeline we're feuding over. We're not in the desert and there's a single lake. Like it's not a real thing.

But like that's the nature, that's the nature of people. Like, you know, I mean, it really is. Like, we can be amazing. I mean, that's one of the things that I love about the Superman mythology that, you know, Jor-El sent him there and basically just said, "They can be so great. Be a beacon." Because I do think that we can, as human beings be amazing, I really do.

I think that even before social media, the horrible minority, sort of typified a lot of the things that we do. They were the ones that – they were the kings that sent all the peasants to war, not for any real reason outside of selfish humanity blah, blah, blah. And then that became the norm. And then that's where we're trapped in, we're trapped in now. I don't think that human beings are inherently evil. I think that we can be, I think if you've ever seen a kid, you can get that kids are really selfish assholes, probably a lot of the time.

But like we have the ability to be amazing and children have the ability to be loving and altruistic, whatever. Like we have this capability, it's just with our current level of cultural and biologic evolution, we really still are children. I mean, human society is only, I mean, you know, the Indus River Civilization was like 7,000 years ago. So like 10,000 years old, you know. Like compared to cosmically, compared to the 4.5 billion years of the earth is a, I mean, it's nothing. We really are children as a species. And maybe that's why we keep rubbing shit all over everything, I don't know. but I believe in our potential. I really do.

[01:03:27] Dylan Watkins: Yeah And a hundred percent, I feel the same way. The thing about this – the thing that makes world wonderful is we have the power of choice. And when you have the power of choice, you can choose whatever you want to do. The thing is the – if you want to choose to rise to be the hero of your own reality or whatever you want to call it, it's hard as shit. It's a hard thing. And then people that don't choose to rise will shit on you so they feel better because it's easier to shit than it is to rise.

[01:03:57] Aleron Kong: Yes.

[01:03:57] Dylan Watkins: And so... and we do have that potential. And there are people, there are communities, there are groups that can raise up and it's about curating those groups. And so that's one of the things I love about the fact that with the Mist Village and stuff, is that you've been able to curate groups that everybody goes, "Okay, look, we're not going to be perfect and sometimes we're going to fight, but we're still a family and we can all rise together and we're going to support each other. And we're going to see the best in each other, versus looking to get into those toxic relationships where any slight I'm going to take as an attack." Right. And so I love the fact because you can – trying to steer that giant emotional ship first inside your own soul and then trying to do with a community. It takes time and effort. And so...

[01:04:38] Aleron Kong: It does.

[01:04:39] Dylan Watkins: And so, I completely believe it. It's just what, what can you do? What – and it could be writing books, it could be making art, it could be doing a podcast. It could be doing whatever thing it is that you want do. And I agree, it's just, can you be a beacon? Which, I mean, I think you totally do and you embody, which is one of the reasons why I want to have you on here and talk about you and your story, and your story about your stories. Because I think as humans the way that we learn more than anything is through stories. It's emotion plus experience creates retention.

And so the more powerfully, and you've alluded to this multiple times about not saying, "Hey, the main character is Black and he's Black." It's a show not tell kind of experience where you're saying, "Okay, this is what he lives by. I'm not going to tell you it but this is  what he lives by. And this is the experiences that he has." And those are the best ways. When we can kind of like, you know, like eat popcorn and watch people go through life, those things have impressions where, you know, there are moments in times where I'm hearing Richter S speeches of him standing in front of people, like giving these epic speeches.

And when I – because I run small teams of people, I try to give those types of like embody those types of feelings and give that to those people, because you see that and that's what the beautiful thing about mentors. There's a mentor that you have and they create a certain emotion in your mind. You're like, "Man, I'd love to live up to that, live up to that mentor." And so then you try to live your own way and kind of honoring and mimicking that style.

And, for you, like, do you have mentors in your life, whether literary or not, that you try to embody as you kind of go through not only writing your books, but take life and actions and things like that?

[01:06:30] Aleron Kong: So, my mother has always been the most influential person in my life. Like she's the only person that has two characters modeled after her. She's got mama in the very first one and she's got the heart mother in the second one. She's this like five-foot-two typhoon of force of personality. So like, you know, like she very much, I think instilled a great deal of strength in me.

But then there's also my father, who's sort of just the kindest, most, I believe in people kind of person. And he – I mean I think my core is definitely more steel, but you know, he's the one that's like, what are you going to do with that boy? What is the purpose behind it? There's not validity in strength alone. It's what you do with the strength that gives you validity, that gives you purpose. So, a lot of the idealism that Richter comes across very much is his voice in my ear.

And then I've had like, just really ridiculous friends that, you know, like we do stupid things. Like, there's – I wrote my buddy Nick into it because, you know, we went to Vegas and we lost him for like a day. And then we randomly find him in like playing slots, somewhere, wearing a quilt and tuxedo top. And he's just, you know, he's got these like thick glasses on and he just drinks it out of like, just like this bottle. And he's just playing slots.

And we're like, "Nick!" he goes, "Uhh" And he is like, "What are you doing?" And he takes a long drink and he goes, "Having breakfast." I was like, it's a perfect, perfect moment. And so like, you know, I wrote that in. As far as like...

[01:08:24] Dylan Watkins: I remember that.

[01:08:26] Aleron Kong: ...mentor. Yeah, right? As far as mentors in my professional life, sadly, I have not had very, very many. And honestly, that bothered me a bunch while I was on my way up. And the way that I've responded to it though, is that I have become the mentor to other people that I always wish that I had for myself.

And honestly, that's one of the things that I sort of tell people that like, you know, again, the world is not fair, so I'm sorry if the world did not provide you what you should have had in an ideal world. But if you really want to deal with that, give. Because constantly waiting to receive is a miserable way to be. But you'd be surprised how, how much better you feel by taking care of someone else. And so...

[01:09:20] Dylan Watkins: That is such a... I love, I love that because it's, for some reason, that's what I would call the cave you fear to enter. Right? Then "The cave you fear to enter lies the treasure you seek" by Joseph Campbell. And what it means by that is like the world is not fair. Okay. Well then make it fair by giving, right?

[01:09:39] Aleron Kong: Yes.

[01:09:40] Dylan Watkins: And like, "Oh, he, you know, he was able to make that happen and become a successful author. And okay, well then go and write, right? It's like, it's do the – do the thing that you don't want to do in order to get what you want. Right? And it's always, it always comes down to that factor of, are you willing to go do that action that you, you know, because the hero's journey is always about, I will do whatever it takes to become successful except for X. And that X is the thing that you need to do over and over again, and repeatedly, generally speaking as you loop through life. So I haven't heard the world's – if you feel it's not – the world is not fair. Great. Give until you make it fair. That is a...

[01:10:21] Aleron Kong: And do it in an intentional way, right?

[01:10:23] Dylan Watkins: Yeah.

[01:10:23] Aleron Kong: Like if you give away every dollar you have, and then you are homeless, that's not what I'm telling you to do. Because again, the world isn't fair. Some asshole's probably just going to rip up all your money and run to Vegas. Right?

[01:10:37] Dylan Watkins: Yeah.

[01:10:37] Aleron Kong: I'm saying, use your brain and then – and hold onto your hope and then do it in a way that you think is effective. If that's not effective, shift something and keep trying until it is effective, because you might, you have a chance of coming out the other side.

As opposed to just staying where you are, and you're just going to be pretty miserable and then make everyone else miserable. And then you're just part of the whole thing that you hated initially. But there's no promise.

And I think that's where people get caught up. We really want a promise. We're willing to do something as long as you promise. And it's like, that's just, that's just not the way the world is. It's just, it never has been. And I think that – I imagine that in the past, children grew up that way, but things were tough enough in the world that they lost them, right?

Whereas things are not super tough for a lot of us, meaning we have enough food to eat. We're not living in a war zone. We're not, I mean, we all go through stuff, but not really compared to how chillingly bad it is, other places, right? And so, we just keep floating and never really lose that, like, idea that we're owed something just because we're so special. Like we're not.

[01:12:01] Dylan Watkins: Well, we are both, uh, you know, greatest connected to the cosmos and we are also specs of insignificant nothing. We are both sides of the spectrum and we don't deserve anything. And we're just also at the same time lucky to be alive. And I completely connect and resonate with that.

You were talking about, you know, right now you're at a unique phase in your life, Audible,  favorite author and been able to accomplish a lot and been very fortunate and blessed as long wave. You have a lot of struggle and grit and growth that you've had along the way. Going through this whole journey for you now, you talked about the three goals that you've had. I mean, what is your holy grail? Like, what do you hope to get out of life, out of the writings, out of all of this?

[01:12:51] Aleron Kong: I definitely hit the existential, what does it all mean is, you know, I'm going to die one day kind of thing, that I think all people hit when they hit middle age. I hit mine a little early, which I'm glad that not something I have to look forward to, because again, on turning 40 on Sunday.

For me, I, on a daily basis, I want to laugh more than I stress. I want to take care of the people that, you know, I care about. I want to, in some way, leave the world a better place. But I'm not stressing about those things. You know, my dad doesn't understand my lifestyle at all because he grew up very much in, you know, the Reagan era. And he is like, "You know, son, you're doing well. Like why, why don't you have a Porsche? Why don't you have a French mistress? Like, why don't you have a yacht?"

And I'm like, "Old man, all your friends are broke because they chase that shit, especially the mistress." Like really, I don't know, like, I feel very lucky that the things that I enjoy are shooting this shit with my boys and, you know, watching the latest season of Lost in Space that just came out and being excited about spending time with people that care about me, losing some of this gut. You know, I mean, like the things that I enjoy, right, are not overly expensive and I'm blessed enough that I can sort of do that thing.

And I'm able to create these worlds, which gives me a validity that I – and for me, that I was lacking before. Something that I didn't know I needed, but really, really, you know, hungered for unknowingly. And in the grand scheme, you know, I'm sort of open for like, you know, what's coming. I mean, professionally, I would love to have my stuff turned into an anime. Not necessarily because then I'll be like, "I made it" because I'm like, that'd be really fucking cool. I mean, it would just be cool. Yeah.

[01:14:53] Dylan Watkins: Yeah. The trans– yeah, well, couple pieces of that I do want to get to that, but the – I love it. I mean, but those are things that make people happy.

Laughter connection, contribution, giving to the family, being around people, having joys and funs, that's old school, Gordon Gekko, hookers, and blow, going to a yacht, sail into the sunset kind of thing, which is, which I'm sure is, is fun for about seven minutes.

[01:15:14] Aleron Kong: Crazy fun. Yeah. I'm sure. You know, like, you know, drug dealers are never like, "How are we going to sell all these drugs?" Like, I mean, I get it. But then there's the other side of it. Right? And we know the other side, right? Like. You know...

[01:15:28] Dylan Watkins: It doesn't fill you up. There's certain – there's different types of energy sources. Right? And that, that laughter with friends, having a good times, watching the latest Ghostbusters movie, you know, all those things. I don't know if you saw the latest Ghostbuster movie, by the way.

[01:15:40] Aleron Kong: No, super excited about it.

[01:15:41] Dylan Watkins: Dude.

[01:15:42] Aleron Kong: Like I super excited about it, yeah.

[01:15:43] Dylan Watkins: Dude. Oh my God.

[01:15:44] Aleron Kong: I mean I'm really looking forward to it.

[01:15:48] Dylan Watkins: My God, they do it justice. I cried. I laughed.

[01:15:50] Aleron Kong: I heard that.

[01:15:52] Dylan Watkins: I screamed a little bit like a little girl. It is like, it is what you wanted it to be. Because whenever anybody messes with your childhood loves, you know, and they mess with it and they ruin it. It's like they stole a little bit of your childhood and then stepped on it and then, you know. But they do it right. So simple pleasures, when you said that it made me think of being, you know, with my significant other going and watching Ghostbusters and going, "Yeah, that was a really good time." And...

[01:16:20] Aleron Kong: Yeah. Right?

[01:16:21] Dylan Watkins: And you're right. That's what really matters, having those...

[01:16:23] Aleron Kong: Good memories.

[01:16:24] Dylan Watkins: Those shared moments with the people that you love. And then looking and going, "Wasn't that dope? That was dope." And then you have that.

[01:16:30] Aleron Kong: Yeah. Those fire. Yeah.

[01:16:32] Dylan Watkins: Yeah.

[01:16:34] Aleron Kong: No, I mean, that's, that's basically what I'm all about. I mean, ideally, they will have direct brain upload VR before I die because I could totally kill Orcs for a couple hundred years. Like, I'd be about that life, but you know, if not, I'm doing the best with the time I got.

[01:16:49] Dylan Watkins: They're getting there, man. They're getting there.

[01:16:51] Aleron Kong: I know.

[01:16:53] Dylan Watkins: There's two pieces. I know Gabe Newell, if you know, Gabe Newell, he's the creator of Valve and Steam and all that stuff. He created all of that stuff. Yeah. So he's Gabe Newell. He just heavily invested in some sort of brain interface thing with VR, I don't know what it is. But he's like this mad genius dude who did that. I don't know what that is, but I know – there's this other girl that was the ex-head – because I'm super geeky deep in this space, just coming from that, that side is.

There's this girl who I saw late night in a deep Reddit hole, I was clicking on Reddit. And it said, and the title of the Reddit post was "Ex-head Researcher for Oculus Facebook Invents AR/VR Telepathy." And I was just like, I was like, Click. I was like, "All right, I'm going to watch this." And this older woman. And she was talking about, you know, how back in the day she invented holograms and she started doing speed of light calculations with her fingers.

And I was just like, "Okay, I'm too dumb. I don't know." And so what she started talking about, I'm like, "Is this real?"

So I sent to my three smartest friends, friend at MIT, a couple of other friends, and they all messaged back was like, "Yes, what she's saying is a hundred percent true." And what she did was this. You know, on your, on your phone, on your camera, if you take your camera and you hold it up to your finger, it can see all the blood moving through your finger, right? So you do that, right? Inside the Oculus Facebook labs, they have like $50,000 headsets and they took an array of cameras, which is just merely cameras in a row and they put it inside the helmet, inside the VR headset.

And so what happens is that all of a sudden that VR headset operates like a functional MRI machine because it can track where all that happens. So what happens if I know what you're seeing, I know what you're hearing. I can track that. And not only can track that for you. I can do machine learning on millions of people all doing at the same time. It goes to the three levels of AI from, you know, just tweaking it to kind of thinking about it, to eventually predicting what you're going to think. So I could think, "Oh my God, Aleron is a badass dude." and it would translate that and then send that to you.

[01:18:55] Aleron Kong:  Send it to you. Yeah.

[01:18:56] Dylan Watkins: And transfer that down there. So...

[01:18:58] Aleron Kong: No, I think that's totally – yeah. I mean, I think that's totally going to happen. I mean, like right now, we're doing it with the, I mean, like with the MR– I mean, like, what is it? In Daniel Suarez's book, uh, Daemon, they worked really well.

[01:19:08] Dylan Watkins: Yeah. Daemon and Freedom.

[01:19:09] Aleron Kong: He got to that – Yeah, right? Amazing. You know, where basically, like they saw the blood flow go here or there, and they're like, "Tell me your name. Does it start with an A? B? C? Okay, it starts with a C, da, da, da." Right. But I mean, that's what the level of tech that we have now. We all know from watching the tech explosion, that once we have one implementation that has some sort of financial yield that then exponentially logarithmically shoots up. Right?

[01:19:38] Dylan Watkins: Yeah.

[01:19:38] Aleron Kong: So it's like, we're doing that with our current tech. Like what happens when we have better imaging tech? What happens when we have something that measures blood flow and electrical signals and whatever? And then what happens when we have an AI that has a predictive algorithm that really gets da da da? And then suddenly the tech is way beyond what we even need to do it. Yeah. I mean, I think that's basically what's going to happen. I think it's amazing. Yeah.

[01:20:01] Dylan Watkins: Yeah. There's the other book, the Awaken Online Series. There's like a super AI system and they know what you're thinking. So they craft the world and all that stuff. And that's what we all want to live in that, that the literal RPG books that, you know, you come out with and then go, "Yes. Plug me into that. I want to be a Richter. I want to – put me in, I want to look down, I want to have dark skin. I want to be able to go into my village. I want to be able to live this character."

And then what's funny is that you actually – I meet with neuroscientists and a lot of people that do a lot of neural work with virtual reality. And one of things that they said is that like there's actual experiences where you can actually put on a headset and become Albert Einstein, and they've done tests to show when you do that, you actually get better at math. You actually start to believe that you're better at math because you start to live that. So you could literally shape people's realities where I could be more Richter-like if I put on the headset and I lived like Richter for a little while. Which is...

[01:20:57] Aleron Kong: No, I mean, I think that's, I think everyone does – anyone that's ever really invested themselves in something recognizes that it make – it changes how you view the world, right?

[01:21:04] Dylan Watkins: Yeah.

[01:21:04] Aleron Kong: Like I was super into chess for a while. And I still play a little bit, but back then when I was like, really about it all the time, like multiple games. I started viewing things in a more – I'm thinking seven moves ahead. I'm thinking, blah, blah, blah. I understand such and such. And it literally just shifts how you're viewing things. I mean, everyone that has looked at anything knows that listening to heavy metal and listening to classical, shifts your brain wave links to the surface then. Right?

So, I mean, like we're monkeys scratching in the dirt. Like at this, you know, at this tech and at all the secrets of the universe that are out there, and yet we we're so impressed with ourselves all the time. Like just thinking like, "Oh my God, we're at the pinnacle." And it's like, I mean, there's no humility in that looking at like, "Well, in the 1900s, I bet they were shitting on the 1800s. And in the 1800s, I bet they were shitting on the 1700s. I mean, why do you think we're different?"

[01:22:04] Dylan Watkins: Yeah. Yeah. My 30-year-old self shit on my 20-year-old self, my 20-year-old shit on my 10-year-old self. And I go, "Oh, I know, I know my shit now." And I bet in 10 years from now, I'm going to go back and go, "Ew, dummy" You know, like, I can't believe you had that big beard. Yeah. Yeah. So it's just...

[01:22:18] Aleron Kong: I say that to people often. I'm like, you know, all the things that you're worried about, I want to ask, just stop and think, would you be worried about – what would 10 years from you now say, right. Like if you're like, "Oh my God, I'm 30. I'm so old now." Like 40 year old? You would slap the shit out of you for that. They'd be like, "Do you know how like, well, your hips used to work? You lazy son of a bitch, like, are you serious? You know?"

Like, I try to think about that. I'm like, "Well, what is 50-year-old Aleron going to say?" If I'm like, "Well, I'm kind of heavy now. There's no point in working out." And he's like, "Do you know how much more like dick stamina you would had? You selfish bastard. Go run!" Like, you know, that kind of thing. So yeah, I think about that. I don't know.

[01:23:01] Dylan Watkins: That's so powerful. I do want, I do want like VR experiences like that, where I could put it on there is like a 10 year older version of me just slapping me in the face. "Come on, bitch. Get out of the bed. I know you got some... yeah. You're going to give me a heart attack right now. What are you doing? Come on. You got..."

[01:23:17] Aleron Kong: I mean, honestly, I think about that, that like I've started exercising, I've lost 20 pounds in the last, like six months and started making this more of a regular thing, because I'm literally thinking like, "Okay, like being chubby in my 30s, wasn't super duper cute. But in my forties I could literally die or have a stroke and partial paralysis." Be locked in my body. Never really be able to enjoy. Or, I can just, you know, stop buying fucking Oreos and go for a walk. And I do that because I'm literally thinking what would 10 years from now I would.

[01:23:53] Dylan Watkins: It's a super powerful thing, man. But the one thing I've noticed you have the ability to is you have these identity shifts, where like, oh, well Aleron has always been this, you know, this way. And I love it, because like right now, like the things that you've told me right now is that you thrive on your ability to just like shock people, right? And a lot of it has been – it's been on the  professions, right? And you're like, "Oh, you don't think I can go write eight books?" Right?

And then you've gotten to this point where you're like, "You know what? I'm going to shock people or I'm going to, you know, one day I'm going to show up and I'm just going to have a tear away shirt and do a little like Chippendale's dance and go "Oh, bam!" Right?

[01:24:30] Aleron Kong: Boom! Yeah.

[01:24:31] Dylan Watkins: And it's that thing where you're constantly changing your identity, not because anyone's telling you, but because you're like, "Well, what do I want next?" You're like, "What I want next is that – what I want 10 years from now? Right? I want to have a creative – I want to literally give birth to a six pound literary baby. You know, through my brain vagina and then be able to say, "That's mine."

But that's what – I think it's really cool. And I think that's something to know of, like, when people go, "Well, how did you do this?" And they look at you, "Oh, this is Aleron now." right? "This is Aleron as is." And it's, "No, you're like, you're this moving river flowing through time. And what's cool is like you – and you are even predicting your river point right now. And you're saying, "Look, I want to get super fit. I want to do that stuff." And then you say, you want to take on these new creative hobbies. And the creative hobbies were what again, could you remind me?

[01:25:22] Aleron Kong: So, yeah, like for me, and that's one of the things that's keeping my writing fresh is that I'm doing things that stimulate me. So, I mean I'm making a web comic right now. I've got about 25 episodes out and I'm still not a hundred percent sure what I'm going to do with it. I just knew I wanted to make it. I knew I'm having a lot of fun.

I'm working on a couple different scripts to do plays with other narrators. Because I just feel like they're amazingly talented and finding fun ways to do that. I'm, you know, sort of, you know, just educating myself about things that I find really, really interesting and connecting with a professor here, a Yogi there, a blah, blah, blah, blah. I don't know. I just think it'll be really tragic if this was the best version of myself, even though I love me. I mean I fucking love me. I'm like how much more could I love me smart.

[01:26:13] Dylan Watkins: Well, I, you know – that's what I love about it is there's this combination of, if you go back to old Aleron or old anybody, you have this like, this angry at other people and because you're angry at yourself kind of thing. But then, you know, one of the questions I've always asked is how do I pleasantly progress, right? How do I strive to move forward without that grind and that loathing? And do I really need to have, because some people have that belief that I only move forward, if I'm unhappy. I can only progress if I don't like who I am and where I'm at. But I mean, right there, you're talking on a really powerful point. That ability to be completely good with who you are, love it. Be joyful, be content. And I'll say, "I'm happy here. And I know I'm going to love that. So I'm going to do that. And I don't care what anybody says."

And I think that's a really powerful lesson. If more people were able to just own who they are now, accept it. And then also say, what do I want next? And take – and move forward. And not like shame or guilt themselves for not moving forward, but just to move it  when they want. Like, we would be a much happier, better society. And I think that's a really powerful lesson that you've, I mean, shared through this journey.

So, Aleron, I absolutely appreciate you being on here. I know we went over a bit.

[01:27:25] Aleron Kong: It's fun.

[01:27:27] Dylan Watkins: Yeah, it was joy. With that being said, is there anything else you'd like to let people know about the web comic, which I've seen and it's super fun. I really love the animations and take a look at it. I mean is there anything else you'd like to let people know about before you tell them how they get ahold of your Pantheon of books?

[01:27:46] Aleron Kong: I don't know. Let me just take the time to say, you guys probably, anyone that's looking in this probably has their own thing that they got going on. Like it's okay, dude. And it's okay, man. Like, it's tough, but it's not, it's not impossible. So good luck.

[01:28:04] Dylan Watkins: Words of wisdom, man. I appreciate it. All right. Aleron, it's been an absolute pleasure. Thank you for coming on the show. I really appreciate you being here with me. It was a joy jamming with you. I look forward to the next one of your books coming out and I know you don't have specific dates, but I do know, and I'm not going to hold you to anything. It's all good, man. When they come, they will come, dude. Just let them out.

I look forward to when the next set Land comes on or God's Eye, the next one just comes out as well. They're great books. For anybody that hasn't seen them, you can go find them on Audible or any other place that you can get books. So, thank you for all that you do, brother. And I appreciate you and I'll see you on the other side, okay?

[01:28:40] Aleron Kong: Appreciate it.

[01:28:41] Dylan Watkins: Talk to you later. Bye now.

[01:28:45] Outro: Thank you for listening to the Heroes of Reality Podcast. Check out HeroesofReality.com for more episodes. While you're there, you can also take the Hero's quiz to find out what kind of hero you are, or if you have a great story and want to be on the podcast, tell us why your hero's journey will inspire others. Thank you for listening. See you on the other side.