Episode 66 : Funding The Impossible - Tipatat Chennavasin
Tipatat Chennavasin is a General Partner of the Venture Reality Fund investing in early stage VR, AR, AI and 5G companies. He has experience creating VR/AR content and became convinced of the power of VR when he accidentally cured himself of his real life fear of heights while developing in VR.
He is an adviser for many VR and AR companies as well as a mentor for VR and AR incubators and accelerators around the world. The Venture Reality Fund has looked at over 5,000 startups in the space and invested in over 40, including Beat Games, acquired by Facebook, and Rec Room, the first VR software Unicorn.
Audio Title: Ep66 - Tipatat Chennavasin
Audio Duration: 01:23:13
Number of Speakers: 2
[00:00:00] Intro: Welcome to the Heroes of Reality Podcast, a podcast about the game of life and the hero's journey we all experience. Let's jump in with our host Dylan Watkins, as he introduces today's guest.
[00:00:25] Dylan Watkins: Welcome young adventurers. Dylan here. This is going to be an awesome podcast with my friend, Tipatat Chennavasin. He is the General Managing Partner for the Venture Reality Fund. I'm very excited. I've known him for a number of years through OCVR and all the other endeavors. I've ran across him at several virtual reality events. He's always at the cutting edge. He's got great and insightful things to say. And so without any delay, I'd like to welcome my friend, Tipatat.
[00:00:55] Tipatat Chennavasin: Hey, Dylan. Thanks so much for having me. Really honored to be here and speaking to your audience and just chopping it up, man. It's been a while. It's been too long. I miss going to the conferences and seeing you and chatting and –
[00:01:08] Dylan Watkins: Absolutely brother, man. It's one of those things that like going to those conferences, I always feel like it's almost like, especially being at this kind of cutting edge technology stuff, coming across friends like that, it's like an oasis in the desert. You come across them. You're like, it's you, it's so good to – fellow traveler, look what I've brought. And then like you trade goods and ideas and thoughts and drinks. And I miss that so much on those types of events. So it's nice that we're seemingly getting past that whole epoch and era and hopefully on to better things. But seemingly all for the better for virtual reality and this type of cutting edge technology, how has it been for you from your perspective with this whole pandemic thing that we we've gotten through? How have you seen it affect the whole virtual reality market and everything?
[00:02:01] Tipatat Chennavasin: I mean, yeah, it's definitely one of those things where, you know, I think others have commented about how much VR and AR has really blossomed. It's kind of gone from like a need to have or a nice to have, or a future thing to a, hey, we needed this yesterday and, you know, we need more of this and yeah, it's like this idea of, okay, yeah. The pandemic, you know, accelerated the digital transformation, but then it also really kind of highlighted this idea of, okay, why do we do this when we can do these other things? And when we couldn't do these other things, oh my gosh, this became the only way to do things for certain – you know, especially in the enterprise.
But, you know, even from home, like we've seen this boom of, you know, consumer VR because of the Quest and the Quest 2, you know, because of, you know, the great games that are on Steam. Like PSVR, you know, still continues to be pretty strong. And so, you know, just knowing that yeah, like consumer VR hit that, you know, like even before the pandemic had really like turned a corner and proven that it was, you know, really happening and then the pandemic just kind of accelerated.
And it's been fantastic, honestly, like, you know, for me too, right? Like I was supposed to be in Thailand, a best man for one of my closest friends for his wedding, and the pandemic didn't allow that to happen. And so, you know, I couldn't do the bachelor party. I couldn't do any of these things, but what I did was, you know, I bought a bunch of us, you know, Oculus Quests, sent it out to Thailand and then we would get together and hang out, and we actually got to hang out more now because, you know, it's not just a one weekend thing, but it's like, oh yeah, we're playing Onward, we're playing Demeo. Like, you know, there's just so many great experiences and it's awesome, right? Like, so I feel like these are one of those things that, you know, the pandemic has really kind of shown, this is exactly what VR can do. And, you know, I've always hated when people are like, oh, VR is so antisocial. And you're like, no, it is absolutely not. It is more social, you know, than anything.
And just because you're not social with the person in the same room with you, but you can be social with anyone and have that same kind of like rich presence and a deeper social experience than you've ever had online before. Like that's really the power. So not to dive too deep into that, you know, I do feel like –
[00:04:12] Dylan Watkins: – your story. Yeah.
[00:04:13] Tipatat Chennavasin: Man, it's like, yes, like VR and AR have really become, you know, huge parts of my life, like more so than ever. And it's awesome.
[00:04:24] Dylan Watkins: Yeah. And you bring up a really good point. And for people that haven't, you know, drank the Koolaid as we have, there's like these magic moments in VR, these moments that kind of shift what virtual reality means to you and how you perceive what's possible for it. And one of those magic moments that hit me in a different place and it sounds like hits you is when you have your first social experience, you're with your friends, you lose yourself in that kind of group flow state, and you make these kind of, oh my God, memories together. And you have those memories like, oh, that's great. Go over here. Throw that grenade, shoot that gun. Yeah, we got it. And that magic kind of like burns into your soul a bit.
And I'd love to like talk – talk to me a little bit about like some of those magic moments you had with VR, some of the magic, whether with your friends playing Onwards or when you first got your headset, what are a couple of those moments that got you to really spearhead and be one of these driving forces in the whole virtual reality industry?
[00:05:24] Tipatat Chennavasin: Sure. Sure. I mean, I guess I should kind of roll it back and talk a little bit about my background and, you know. But, you know, for me, my background coming into this, like yeah, as a kid, I love animation, right? I always felt like magic in the real world. Like there was no pure magic than drawing images on a paper and making something come to life. Like that was amazing.
And, you know, as a little kid, I did like stop motion animation with my parents camcorder, but then, you know, you know, kid of the '80s. So then when I got my first game console or played, you know, the first game consoles back then, even though they're just primitive, you know, highly pixelated sprites, you know, basic controllers on the Atari. You know, the first time I like, you know, got a high score on like Track & Field, I was just like, oh my God, this is amazing. This is even more magical because now you can directly control this in real time, right?
And so, you know, that idea of like, okay, this is what, you know, modern day magic is. And it's like, you can create a world where anything can happen, anything is possible. And so I've always kind of loved both art and animation and then programming and, you know, making my first calculator games. And then I was really big into, you know, during the Flash booms and like the web, you know, web 1.0 days, where Flash animation became a thing. And then with like Flash programming games in Flash, Newgrounds was a really popular site. And I submitted stuff to that. And, you know, just like that whole thing of like, you know, anything's – you know, we're going to make crazy stuff. Most of it's going to be terrible, but you know, the idea that anyone with a computer could contribute and make something that at that time it was like, oh my God, maybe a hundred people could play this. That would be amazing, right?
And so that, like, you know, just, just got me excited about this whole idea of like, okay, anyone can be a creator. You know, you didn't have to work for some big company. You could put something, put it on the web. People could try it. This, like weird, you know, demo scene or, you know, and again, not thinking about like trying to make money, not thinking about, you know, just trying to share joy, right? I think that's like that fundamental idea.
And I think I liked, you know, I was listening to – it was your talk with – oh gosh, why am I blanking? I feel so embarrassed now. But with one of the most important, you know, game designers that's working in gaming.
[00:07:35] Dylan Watkins: Dave Perry?
[00:07:36] Tipatat Chennavasin: In VR specifically. No, no, this is –
[00:07:38] Dylan Watkins: Jesse Schell?
[00:07:39] Tipatat Chennavasin: Jesse Schell, yes. Yes, yes. And you're talking about like, are you building this for yourself? Are you building this for other people to enjoy? And like, there's definitely like, for me, it always starts like, I just build this because I want to enjoy it. But then once you've gone through that, then you're like, okay, but now I need to like drag my brother in to try or you need to drag like my friend in to try and be like, oh my God, isn't this cool. And so like, there is that innate, like, you know, I think that innate idea of creating something from nothing, you know, creating something that you've wanted to experience and then getting other people to try it. Like that's always kind of been ingrained in me.
[00:08:11] Dylan Watkins: I love that.
[00:08:12] Tipatat Chennavasin: And I say both of them are equally important, right? Although, I did like to say, like once I got the DK2, I said, even if this doesn't take off as an industry, I will forever be making stuff for this, because this is so magical. Like this is the infinite canvas that I always wished for as a kid. So that was really like my like first kind of when I tried – like, even when I tried the DK1, I was like, okay, this is cool, but it's still not quite, you know – and it wasn't so much about the resolution or this, but, but honestly it just made me sick and I was just like, oh my gosh, like maybe the VR revolution isn't for me. But then when I tried, you know – and that was because it was a 3DoF, really low res system, you know, powered by my underpowered MacBook.
[00:08:54] Dylan Watkins: Yep.
[00:08:55] Tipatat Chennavasin: And then when the DK2 came around you, I got the right machine, was serious, set up the camera. And once I had six degrees of freedom head tracking, I was like, okay, that's the real magic. Like that was like the mind blowing. Oh, okay. Now I am completely convinced that the stack of cards on this desk is in front of me, and this is a real thing, and I don't have to like, pretend, right?
And so, you know, then it came – okay now what do you do with this? What are the experiences you make? And so, you know, I started sketching and just – and even with the DK1, I was just making these like really simple, silly experiments, you know, I was like, oh yeah, I'm a 3D artist. I love anime. I love, you know, '80s cartoons. I made like Optimus Prime, Transformer.
[00:09:36] Dylan Watkins: Yeah.
[00:09:37] Tipatat Chennavasin: Real, full scale. He transforms in front of you, you're you know, like, yeah, like, cool. And then I made one where it was like, oh, Godzilla. I'd want to see Godzilla. You know, I'm standing, you know, in the street and I see, you know, Godzilla walking by and the whole, you know, the whole world shakes with each footstep.
But then I remember it was, you know, someone had created the Seinfeld Experience, and I was like …
[00:09:56] Dylan Watkins: I remember that.
[00:09:57] Tipatat Chennavasin: … go into Seinfeld's apartment. And I was like, God, if I could go anywhere and visit any kind of like movie set, TV set, I wouldn't want to go to Seinfeld's department, I want to go into the Matrix.
[00:10:07] Dylan Watkins: Yeah.
[00:10:08] Tipatat Chennavasin: And so then, you know, I created this very simple demo and I was also trying to play with this idea, like I love the idea of, you know, again, not just watching a movie, but what would a movie in the future be like? And you wouldn't be a person watching people interact. You would be the star of the movie or a character in the movie and they would interact with you. It would be not how you watch a movie, but how you dream of the movie experience come to life. So now you're Neo, you're talking to Morpheus, as he explains to you that the world is an illusion, right? Like that was like the thing I wanted to do because I love that idea of like, you know, having a presentation that felt like a magic show and that idea that, you know, he can only do things like you start in the construct, then you go into, you know, the fake world, the '90s world, then you go into the, you know, destroyed dilapidated world.
And so I put out this little demo and it was not that great, you know, I used free Unity assets, but yeah, I thought it was still kind of fun. It was kind of, you know, it was Matrix-ish, especially ripping the audio from the movie, of course. And then even better, I was very lucky at that time. You know, there are a bunch of sites that would host real 3D models from video games that they rip from the video game, from the DirectX graphics. And so we got the awesome, like, you know, full body scan, you know, that was used in the Path of Neo game of Morpheus. And so it was like a legit looking Morpheus. Like I created the furniture and all that kind of stuff, but like at least Morpheus looked like a pretty good Morpheus.
[00:11:31] Dylan Watkins: Yeah.
[00:11:32] Tipatat Chennavasin: Anyways, so some people saw that, was like, "Hey, Tipatat. That was kind of cute, but let's make a better version. Like, you know, where you actually are in the Matrix and you're like doing cool stuff, like dodging bullets and jumping over buildings." And I was like, okay, yeah, let let's do it. So, Eric Bale and John Dudley, a guy from Texas, that's an amazing game artist, and then a guy from the UK, that's an amazing programmer, you know, we all kind of, you know, joined forces in on nights and weekends, made a full version of this. You know, we call it, you know, the Matrix – I think we called it like The Matrix Rifters. Or no, no, it was called Enter the Matrix VR. Right? That's what we called it.
And, you know, we put it on like Oculus share, but it had, you know, these segments, where like, oh, what would you do? And this was, of course, this is DK2 before the 5 was out, before anyone thought about like hand controllers. So you still had to use the controller to move things around, but you really got that 6DoF freedom. And we built custom sets. Like Eric built amazing sets, like pausing the DVD, recreating the rooftops. So you could jump across buildings, recreating the hallway scene.
[00:12:33] Dylan Watkins: Oh, the bullet …
[00:12:34] Tipatat Chennavasin: At the very end where you actually stop the bullets. And then the world turns into code. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:12:40] Dylan Watkins: Yeah.
[00:12:41] Tipatat Chennavasin: And that was like the show stopper end scene. But like just all of it, right? So we have the construct. So we had the same intro that we I had before, but now we had these interactive games you could play. And so in the process of making the jump program where, you know, you jump across the building – and the way I did it was I wanted it to be head controlled. So I did all the programming. Eric did the art and what we did was like, yeah, so you're running, you press the button and jump and you kind of go where you look. So most people kind of want to look down to kind of see like how far it is down and that makes them fall. But if you keep your head up and kind of look over, then you'll kind of jump and make it across. So almost everyone falls the first time. Like –
[00:13:16] Dylan Watkins: Because you're scared to look down.
[00:13:17] Tipatat Chennavasin: Yeah. Yeah, because you just, oh, you just want to see like, what does it look like? And so in the process of making that jump program where, you know, I forced myself to fall down and I was like, oh, I have to make it feel faster. I have to, you know, make the bounce feel better, like all that kind of stuff. You know, I don't know how many times I did the jump, but I accidentally cured myself with my fear of heights.
[00:13:35] Dylan Watkins: Oh.
[00:13:36] Tipatat Chennavasin: And so that was that big aha moment for me where I was like, oh my gosh, this changes everything. Like VR isn't just this silly, next game system that I was thinking about. Like, this is a brand new medium, the way like it reprograms our brain is more impactful than anything and it's going to change, not just how we play, but how we live, we work, we heal. There's so many applications, so many ramifications. And I like to say like, you know, if a couple, you know, guys messing around on their nights and weekends can do something so profound is like curing me of my phobia. Imagine what, you know, millions of developers could be doing for an audience of billions, right, with this new technology. And so that's when I was like, okay, no, I'm all in on this. This is what I want to dedicate my life to, you know, understanding, you know, what's good about this, you know, how do we support the things across all of these different areas that will really move the needle?
You know, I like to think of us as like, you know, say, like, this is the future of computing. How do we accelerate it? How do we make it happen faster? How do we make the right bets on people that are going to drive that ecosystem forward? You know, how do we really make sure, you know, what we're doing is bringing in the right direction and in a good direction too, right? Like, I feel like with any technology, you know, it can go bad, it can go good or, you know, could putter out. And how do we make sure that it keeps doing these amazing things that we think it can do.
[00:14:51] Dylan Watkins: That's so cool. Well, one, there's a lot of amazing things along that journey. What you're talking about is this is by following your passion, the things that, you know, just you're a gamer kid, who's just excited by the technology and sharing the joy and experiencing and going I want to make The Matrix, I want to make Godzilla, but by doing that, you had a transformative event that actually cured you of something that you feared. And then by the end of that, you're like, oh wow. By accident, by following my joy, my passion, my inspiration, I actually found something profound what this technology could do. By just going through the things I want to do, I got past this big, scary block that I didn't think was possible. And now this whole universe of possibility comes forward.
And so you basically want to be the fuel to the fire of innovation. You want to be able to kind of put rocket fuel into the system and be able to say, okay, industries aren't just birthed by themselves. It takes a lot of hardworking people to drive that forward with money, with time, with resources, passion, dedication, with sleepless nights and a couple packets of ramen and some pizzas, you know, but that's what's really needed. So I love the journey that you went through on this path.
So where along this way did you kick out the venture fund? What was the genesis from going from being a coder technician guy who made the Matrix, who cured his own phobia, which is pretty darn cool, and then went into the venture fund space? How did that shift happen? And was it a transitionary moment that happened or was it gradual? Can you talk to me a bit about that process?
[00:16:21] Tipatat Chennavasin: Sure. Sure. So yeah, like with that aha moment, I realized, okay, I want to do something more impactful than, you know, just make an experience. I want, you know, be more involved. I want to see, you know, like what can I do in this ecosystem? And, you know, a lot of this was, you know, taking my demo and showing it to as many people as I can, trying to convince them too because this was very early on that VR was amazing that you could do these amazing things. And, you know, I gave demos everywhere and it was funny like, yeah, of course all of the VR meetups, but even when I just meet random people, like friends, you know, other entrepreneurs, you know, I had done at my own mobile gaming startup. And so, you know, I was kind of familiar with other investors and other people in the ecosystem. So anyone that would just be like, hey, Tipatat, you know, like, how are you doing? I'd be like, oh, you got to try VR and you got to try this demo I built, you know.
And at one point I felt like I was even giving demos out of like the trunk of my car in a parking garage to my partner, who at the time, Marco wasn't my partner. He was the company – you know, I knew him. And he was a VC at a much bigger VC firm. And, you know, I was just like, you know, you got to be like paying attention to how amazing this can be. And I just felt like the stories of like rappers back in the day, selling like mix tape demos out of the trunk of their car, I felt like the same. I was doing the same thing for like VR, right? Just trying to get people excited, get people to, you know, see what I was seeing.
And I realized, you know, like, and through that, like, you know, started getting a sense of what the ecosystem was like, you know, there were some investors out there that were kind of interested, especially, you know, because Facebook bought Oculus. That was like, you know, a huge turning point for the industry, right? And then, you know, all of a sudden all these investors are like, hey, we're interested. We want to be a part of this or we want to invest in this, you know, what's the best way to do this. And then talking to a bunch of other people that are out there that are kind of like me, or, you know, even like, you know, do think about doing startups in the space and kind of realizing that there was a kind of a disconnect, that a lot of the people that were still in VR were just super passionate about it, but a lot of them didn't have a lot of startup experience and they didn't know how to talk and engage with investors. And, you know, I had that experience from doing my own mobile game company.
And then at the same time, like, you know, I talked to investors and they had no idea how to evaluate a lot of the VR companies and technologies, because again, you know, they're more generalist investors and they're, you know, used to looking at like a, you know, SaaS business or, you know, social media something company, but, you know, VR with all the weird, you know, new technologies and things to understand so different, right? And especially if we think back then, right? This was before the, you know, before even the Rift had launched, before even the CV1 had launched or VIVE had launched. And so, you know, it was kind of like a really weird wild west out there. And you know, I met a fund and they're like, hey, we really want to invest in VR, but yeah, we're thinking about doing incubator accelerator. But, you know, no one on the team has ever actually had a startup and had ever actually been in an incubator accelerator before. And I was like, yeah, you know, I've actually had a startup. I've been in an incubator before. I know it was not a very good incubator, so I have ideas of what to do better. And so yeah, love to be a part of it.
And, you know, I met them because they had tried my demo and that was kind of my resume of like VR cred. And so I, you know, it's kind of silly where I unwind this back and it's like so many good things happened to me in this field and in this space because I built this demo just because I wanted to do it. And it wasn't like – I didn't think it had any kind of commercial value. I mean, obviously not because, you know, it's stealing someone's IP, but, you know, but just the idea of like a passion project, you know, with some friends, nights and weekends, and it just, you know, again, it was three or four nights and weekends. So it wasn't a huge amount of effort, but fortunately I knew Unity. I knew Photoshop. I knew like, you know, 3D modeling. I knew a lot of the techno, but the actual time to actually create this demo was very little, but the impact that it's had on my life has been profound. And, you know, even to this day, I have, you know, comp like, you know, founders I've invested in were like, oh my gosh, I played your demo.
Like, those are the kinds of things that like brought me credibility into the scene. So whether I came as an investor, you know, not only could I, you know, talk the talk and, you know, talk about, you know, the tools and because I've used them firsthand, but when they're like, oh yeah, Tipatat's idea of what VR could be is very interesting and he gets it like in a way that most other people, you know, that are just looking at this as the next money opportunity or something, it's like, oh yeah, there's something else there. And I think that helps serve me well, in terms of like, you know, putting in the work, building something, understanding it, but also, you know, going out there and doing the things like, you know, man, like, the first Oculus Connect, right? Like, I didn't know anyone, I didn't know anyone at Oculus. I mean, I backed down Kickstarter, but I don't even know how, why they let me in.
But like, I just remember, like there was a scene where I walked through and I was like, oh, there's a indie dev room. And it was completely filled. And I was like, oh man, I want to show off my stuff. So I just like, went back to my room, grabbed my backpack, popped it down, just grabbed a couch and just games up. And I was just like, who wants a demo? And I just did like demos nonstop at Oculus Connect. And that was like one of the craziest moments. And then what was great was there was actually a panel and it was about like, you know, the founders of the Matrix, you know, the creators of the Matrix special effects. They're going to be here talking about the metaverse and what they think about, you know, VR. And it was, you know, John Gaeta and Kim Libreri.
You know, John Gaeta, again, he's like the father of bullet time. He was, you know, what was at ILMxLAB, like would be advisor for Magical Leap. And then Kim Libreri, you know, CTO of Epic. I mean, again, like these are amazing people doing amazing things. I never thought I'd get to talk to them in the panel. I was just like, hey, I just want to say, you know, I'm a big fan and I have this like Matrix demo that me and my friends made. And I would love for you guys to try it. And then the audience claps. So they were kind of guilted into trying it. So I pull a couch out later and they try it. But like, you know, like, because of that, you know, like just that idea of like, oh my gosh, like I got to talk to them. They were super nice. Super complimentary. Yeah. Stayed in touch with both of them. And so it's interesting to think like how much that, you know, again, a demo that you create – if you create something that can be impactful, you know, it can go very far and again, it wasn't a lot of work. It wasn't that much effort. But man, it's been so rewarding.
[00:22:37] Dylan Watkins: It's a combination though. I mean, look at the different – the confluence, the mixture of the different skills that you had that came together. Most of the people in the industry, I mean, it was such a flat and still is flat to get into. You can still get into it and make huge waves. But having the reps of running a studio, noting what a studio is like, having the rep of talking to investors, the mental or the physical reps are going through that process, going through an incubator and knowing, because I've been through them. They suck. Most of the time they suck because they focus on the wrong things. And that's probably a whole other podcast in and of itself, but you have that. And then you had the courage to go and show this off. And you basically, because you were so infected with the VR bug, you're almost like a - you become this VR drug dealer where you're like, hey buddy, you want to try some VR? I'm going to blow your mind, man. And you like, you go and you put it on people's heads because you want them that – there is almost no greater feeling than giving the gift of VR for the first time to someone who's never experienced it. And then you watch them just go, what just happened? And then you're like, yes. And then you want to give more of that away.
But the courage that took you – because not everybody who ripped all of the Matrix stuff would then go in front of the Matrix people and say, by the way, I've ripped all your stuff. You want to see what I made with it? In front of a crowd of people. But you need that. There's a certain amount of courage that serves you in that space that then opens up doors, ways of possibilities, because without you doing that, then probably X amount of people didn't see you and so forth and so on.
So you needed both the skill sets and the mindset to be able to step in those spaces. So one thing I want to look at here, just touch on it. And I'm going to dive into this in a minute, but you said you made a couple of investments inside the VR space. What to you are the ones that have been the most rewarding to you? What have been the ones that you've enjoyed and why have been the ones that you've invested in been the ones that you've found to be the most impactful to you or the most beneficial, rewarding in one way or another? Like what about those things made those things good to you?
[00:24:43] Tipatat Chennavasin: Wow. It's tough to call out, you know, like one or two, but, you know, I will say …
[00:24:49] Dylan Watkins: You can be like, obscure about what the name is, if you don't want to offend people.
[00:24:51] Tipatat Chennavasin: No, no, no. Again, I feel like, so yeah, we've invested very broadly. So, you know, the Venture Reality Fund, just, you know, just to give some more kind of nuts and bolts.
[00:25:01] Dylan Watkins: Yeah. Please.
[00:25:02] Tipatat Chennavasin: You know, $50 million fund. We've been around for five and a half years now. We've done over 40 investments in the space, about 60% on the enterprise side, 40% on the consumer side. And I feel like very fortunate to back some of the amazing founders that we have. And again, it's like having been a founder, I really know. It's like, you know, they're the ones that are doing all the amazing stuff. We just happen to be there to help them out a little early with some capital infusion and a little bit of advice or whatever they, you know, would need. But again, they're the ones that are doing the amazing stuff. We just happen to be lucky enough to support them.
But for me, I still feel like, you know, Owlchemy Labs. They're the creators of the first, you know, VR hit game, Job Simulator. What I really like about what they were doing and how they thought about VR, you know, again, they were just like, oh my gosh, they understood VR and what made VR unique in so many different ways where so many people were focused on, you know, kind of – yeah, sometimes it's harsh to say this, but like, I feel like people were focused on the wrong things, right? Like people were like, okay, VR needs to be AAA, needs to look amazing, needs to just, you know, it's like a PC game plus plus.
And it was like, no, Owlchemy was like, okay, VR is amazing. It's not just what you see though, it's how you interacted. Having that 6DoF gesture control, being able to grab the world and interact with it naturally, you know, being able to like play with things, flip gadgets, you know, all that kind of stuff, and make it feel good. Not just be able to do it, but make it feel good while you're doing it. That's what they focused all of their attention on and really nailed.
And I just remember, like, you know, because you know, game developer, tons of game developer, friends, like, you know, when they looked at early screenshots and they were like, Job Simulator, yeah, it looks like a kid's game. It doesn't look like that great. But it's like you're judging it from a 2D view without actually having tried it. It's hard to make that judgment. But when you play it and you see kind of the joy that's built into it, the discovery, how they are really saying, hey, you know what, games are about interaction. Let's make everything interactive, right? Like let's make the whole world – anything you can do and imagine in this world with the things that we give you in this world, you can do. And that challenge is like, break this, try to be as crazy as you can. And we thought of it and we have an answer for you and it'll bring you a smile to your face, right?
Like that was way more impressive than me than say, hey, can we just make a shooter running gun, and try to just, oh, but now you can look 360? Like that wasn't it. Like they coined this idea of like interaction disappointment, and you don't want to give people interaction disappointment And for me, it was like, you know, this idea of like immersion, wasn't just about the world and seeing the world and feeling like you're immersed in the world, but that interaction, the object immersion to object presence, right? And you see something that looks like, you know, a handle on a drawer and you can't open it. That's just as bad as, you know, breaking, you know, frame rate and having tracking being lost, right? Like, to me, like that idea of believability of like, hey, you're really in this other world, right? Like all of that. So I will always think back – and again, they did so many first, like they were the first I think to go like make over a million, I think the first to make 3 million, you know, like that was always like a huge thing.
And then of course, you know, like the next big VR hit game that we invested in was Beat Games who made Beat Saber. And what I really love about – like of course, brilliant game, they were the first, you know, to go platinum. They're the first to, you know, they made over 180 million in three years. You know, they're the first on so many other levels, right? Like if Job Simulator was like – and Owlchemy was like, you know, showing a hit could be made. They were the first ones to go, okay, this is how big a hit can be. And what's really interesting though, again, looking back at what was possible and, you know, who's the team? Who's doing this? And it was originally developed by three people from the Czech Republic, right? Three of them. And they were, you know, again, no funding, it was self-published, no one had ever heard of them. You know, they had an award-winning, beautifully designed mobile game, the two programmers and designers, but they'd never had like this kind of huge success.
So a lot of people, you know – they weren't on anyone's radar. And this was in the deepest, darkest times of VRs, you know, trough, winter, whatever the analysts were calling it, right? And this little team came out and just made the perfect game that we needed. And, you know, it still is the best-selling VR game. It's like …
[00:29:42] Dylan Watkins: Pokemon Go of VR.
[00:29:45] Tipatat Chennavasin: It's so much. It's like the Tetris of VR. It's like the everything of VR. It is the system seller. And what I love about the game and, you know, again, fun to play. You know, it's actually helped keep me from getting too much COVID weight during this tough time. But you know, it's also the best way to get into flow. Like, you know, just that flow state.
[00:30:06] Dylan Watkins: That's what I was going to say. It's one of the best flow generators. It is the quickest one because you can nail that anxiety and difficulty curve, and you can get it because no matter what level you're at from like you instantly get it, but you go to expert plus plus, and good luck. And so it is beautiful. It's beautiful.
[00:30:25] Tipatat Chennavasin: And what I love too – I think it tells like – when I tell people like what does VR need? And, again, it's not that I don't love Half-Life: Alyx. I think it is like amazing on a whole another level. But if you're an indie team out there, don't try to make the Half-Life: Alyx. Don't try to over make your game, right? Like focus on a couple new core mechanics and polish them until they play so well and then give an excuse for people to come back and keep doing that core mechanic. And I feel like, you know, Beat Saber nailed that like VR specific, you know, core mechanic of slicing and making it, you know, feel so good.
And also too, like they understood – like I think this is where a lot of other folks got it. You know, again, if you're an indie team, have limited resources, auto making the maps makes sense. It's probably, you know, one of the easiest ways to kind of get more content, but at the same time they handmade their maps, choreographed their routine because they understood that gesture, the choreography of a person moving through space is so important and they nailed that so well.
And I just remember, like the first time I played it, my aha moment with Beat Saber was like, okay, like when you have to duck against the wall, and then the next arrows are down arrows, so you have to swing up and you stand up. And that like that bio motion, biomechanical motion, right, it's like that's the right feeling. That's what you physically want to do after you duck. And so they kind of lean into that. So I feel like, oh, they choreographed this in a way that's understanding the way that your body wants to move. And so, you know, there's a great way of how they translated the musicality into a physicality, right? This idea, you know – I don't know, they just nailed so many different things in the game design that it looks deceptively easy and a lot of people kind of wrote it off and they're just like, whatever. And then when they play it, they just can't stop. And they're just like, oh yeah, this is amazing. And I love that. And I love that a small team from the Czech Republic did it.
And that's always my thing. It's like if a team with, you know, can self-publish a game with no, you know, support from Facebook or any of the platforms and make a huge hit, like that's both when we know that VR is really here. And that we also know that, you know, the opportunity for a developer, there's no excuse. There's no excuse that anyone couldn't do something, you know, build something great and then have this amazing outcome.
[00:32:48] Dylan Watkins: A hundred percent. You know, I've ran a number of hackathons and it's amazing how many hackathons I've ran. You look back at Beat Saber and you're like anybody could have made that at a hackathon. They could have made, they could have prototyped the general core mechanics. But it was getting it right and then there were so many things that what I would say full body cognition, you get absolute immersion because your entire body is completely engaged from head to body, to waist, to arms, to feet, to everything. And you lose yourself in the music and in the moment and it is so powerful. And then people modding the crap out of it for whatever, legally, whatever, whatever those things are going on without their approval at all. But then people doing that, it's like, everybody loves music, but now you took everything.
I always believe whenever you can take something that people are nostalgic and they love and they merge it with something innovative and new and they can make it into something holistically like better, that is when all of a sudden people get their mind blown because it's like, oh, I love that song. Now I get to go dance a Taylor Swift Shake It Up in VR because it's just that magic. So I a hundred percent agree with you. And it's incredible because you see it, you feel it and you realize it makes it possible. Like it's very hard right now in the movie industry for you to go make a blockbuster hit, to go keep up with, you know, Steven Spielberg and everybody else and all that fun stuff. But right now in the virtual reality space, you can make, you can still have small people teams and create magic with an innovative mechanic and everything else, and be able to just blow the minds of these things. That's incredible. What are you looking at now? What are the …
[00:34:24] Tipatat Chennavasin: I did want to say that I can keep going about these companies, like because I'm so proud of our portfolio, but there's one other company I did want to give a shout out too.
[00:34:32] Dylan Watkins: Oh, go for it.
[00:34:33] Tipatat Chennavasin: And I feel terrible because I'm really just focusing on our consumer and our gaming companies as opposed to a lot of the amazing enterprise companies. But like I did want to – so Rec Room.
[00:34:42] Dylan Watkins: Oh, yeah.
[00:34:43] Tipatat Chennavasin: They're another one of our portfolio investments. And you know, they are, you know, the first software VR unicorn and they're one of our first checks and we were one of the first checks into the company. You know, again, this idea of what is the killer app for VR. And, you know, obviously the answer is the metaverse and this idea of, okay, a social experience, a massive social experience where, you know, you're an avatar, you meet with others, you hang out, you play with others and you can create experiences for other people inside this application. And then you can actually charge people and make a living, being a creator inside this space, creating and doing a lot of this stuff. And so it's like, okay, now you no longer have to use Unity to create an experience that could blow people's minds. Now you can be in Rec Room and you can put on a play of The Princess Bride, which actually a high school theater group did.
[00:35:37] Dylan Watkins: It did.
[00:35:38] Tipatat Chennavasin: It's amazing. Yeah. So they built the costumes, they built the props, they invite people. And you sat there in the audience, and you just watched people in VR act out The Princess Bride. You're like, yeah, that's amazing. Like, yeah. Or, you know, you can play games, you can do escape rooms, like, you know, just enjoy people's art. Like they actually had, I experienced it earlier, was they create – like the first developer conference, like Rec Con, right? Like that's huge, right? Like you have enough people in your community that are building content that, you know, using your tools, building stuff for other people to enjoy that they threw a conference.
And what was great was this was actually thrown by the community. Rec Con was actually not created by the team. It was actually created by the community. And since I think there's like so many people inside the community that love Rec Room, building in it, you know, making awesome art, like creating cool games, putting together like interactive components for other people to use in their games, and now they're starting to pay out their creators and, you know, just seeing this idea of, okay, yeah, like what – to me, like, what is a metaverse? And a lot of people get caught up on like in the plumbing. It's like, oh, okay. So it's like a 3D internet and it's interconnected world. They can just hop along the lines to – and I'm like, I mean, the plumbing is important. The infrastructure is important. But for me, I think about the experience.
Like for me, it has to be that idea of, okay, you can spend an infinite amount of time in this place. You, you know, have games that you play. It has a wide variety of games. You can play experiences. You can do like, hang out with other people, going to a play, listening to a concert, you know, going to a dance party, all these different things. So it's not just gaming, right? A wide spectrum of activities and past times, right? But that other angle of unleashing the creativity, right? And then letting people getting paid, you know, to create creativity, like building something that's of value to other people. And then having them say, hey, you know what, Tipatat, I love this. I will pay you to do this again or I will pay you to wear a shirt that recognizes your achievement and creating this. Like that to me is like the full loop that makes a metaverse possible so that you could pretty much like be in this alternative universe, like digital universe and it's fulfilling and rewarding.
[00:37:43] Dylan Watkins: It's a value generation ecosystem too. It's like the new YouTube in the space where you get in because you're excited, you love the space, but then you become a content creator. If you look at that mastery path, you know, you get in it by yourself, you make some friends, you go through some things, you try out like the, you know, the peas and carrots are the basic stuff that are out there, like the Frisbee and the things. And then you go into like quest modes, then you start to build your own stuff, and then you become a creator. And then it's a really cool pathway that you can see people going through it and just having an amazing time. Rec Room was one of those places that I had one of my first mind blowing, social experiences, playing the quest mode, the four players where you were with your friend.
[00:38:19] Tipatat Chennavasin: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[00:38:20] Dylan Watkins: It's like, hey bro, I'm down. Come save my life. And the friend teleports over and tags you and you get resurrected. You're like, yes, I'm back in it. And you're going through it. I remember like a 12-year-old or a 13-year-old was they came in and just power leveled me through. He's like wearing the full decked out get up. And he's like, "Hey, you want to come with me? I'm going to go – don't worry, keep up with me." He showed me all these hacks. He's like, "You can go through the wall." And I was just like, who is this beast of a kid? And it was just like, it was really fun. And it was just magic. And I do agree with you, Rec Room is one of those magic. A lot of people try to, it needs to be high fidelity. It's got to look super real. You've got to see the entire face. And we know it's not, it's not the case. You don't need that. What you need is immersion. You need to avoid that interaction disappointment. You need to have the ability to connect. And then that ultimate series of let people, let kids be creative. It is something that they crave almost as much as they crave water and food and friendship. And you can do it in that space like nowhere else. So I completely agree. Anything else you want to say on Rec Room? Because we could go back and forth in this.
[00:39:28] Tipatat Chennavasin: Yeah, yeah. No, there's so much I can say. Like Nick and the team, they've all done such amazing work. But the one thing I did – like, I love that you brought up that when you tag a friend, like for me, that moment too of like, oh my God, like they're getting this in a whole another level is when you're like, oh, how do you revive someone? Okay. Do you shoot them with a healing ray? Do you stab them with a syringe? No, you high five them. Like that was so awesome and so powerful. That idea of like, okay, it's like a positive physical interaction that you do in real life. And now you give it a special meaning and a special power in this digital world. Like I loved that and I loved the design thinking that went into that. And so for me, you know, those little things just to me, like, you know, were like, yeah, these guys get it on this whole another level.
[00:40:11] Dylan Watkins: I saw something that made me giggle. And, you know, like when art affects reality, reality affects art, and you go back and forth. So one of the cool things they have in there is the mechanic when you high five, particle effects come up. Someone created some sort of product that was basically a pop gun with a trigger on it. And when you high fived each other, like the pop gun would shoot off the particle effects.
[00:40:31] Tipatat Chennavasin: That's awesome.
[00:40:32] Dylan Watkins: I'm like they recreated Rec Room's high five. I was like, that's so great.
[00:40:36] Tipatat Chennavasin: That's awesome.
[00:40:37] Dylan Watkins: But you see, the inspiration, you know, you get this thing in this thing where you're doing it for the joy, and then it spreads into reality and now you have these, you know, Rec Room cons or Rec Cons going on, you have all these other ones going on. It starts to spread outwards from that, which is super powerful.
[00:40:55] Tipatat Chennavasin: Yeah. One other thing I did want to say about Rec Room and what I love about their story again, is this idea of like, you know, kind of humble beginnings where they're like, okay, like, if you're wanting to build the metaverse, how much money do you need? How much does that cost? And it was like, well, with today's tools and, you know, with all the infrastructure that's out there, it's like, yeah, if you guys are just, you know, talented team, yeah. They built their first, you know, product, their first version of it with no, you know, outside backing. I think they said it was like in 10 weeks or something like that. They built the first initial version of Rec Room that launched – that again, it didn't have all the UGC tools, it didn't have everything, but it had like three or four mini games, had, you know, good multiplayer physics and, you know, people could just jump in and explore it. And it was like a great foundation that they could build on top of, right?
And so, you know, understanding again this crazy, huge idea. You know, now it's like, oh, you look at Roblox or you look at Rec Room and, you know, billion dollar valuation. Oh my God. But where did it start? You know, what did it take to build it? What was the MVP? And it wasn't this crazy expensive thing that needed, you know, tens of millions of dollars.
[00:42:00] Dylan Watkins: What was the genesis of that? Like how did they – they just go, I want to build a metaverse and then like, how did they come with that initial concept?
[00:42:06] Tipatat Chennavasin: Yeah. Yeah. So, really talented team. A lot of the developers came out from the Microsoft HoloLens game studio or application studio team. And they were like, you know, already thinking about likes spatial interactions. And they realized early on social interactions were great, but they're like, oh God, like this would be great for playing games, but of course, you know, HoloLens was enterprise. And again, you know, this was again before HoloLens 1 had even shipped. And so they're just like, you know, we want to work on this kind of stuff, but we want to do it on something for consumers. So that's going to be a VR headset. So the original Oculus Rift and the, you know, HTC VIVE and that's kind of where they were building hoards. And, you know, they launched, you know, again, they were just like, okay, they knew how to use it. They knew all this stuff, they just went to work and just built something, you know, pretty amazing, very quickly, got it out there and iterated. And that's the other thing too. It's like, you know, they get community feedback, they've been iterating. And I think they were saying something like, oh, we, they release an update every week. And they've done that, you know, since they launched what like four or five years ago. And so, you know, like, okay, yeah, like these guys are beasts.
But also too, like, you know, thinking about, okay, like, you know, what are the insights they're seeing? You know, where's the fun, zeroing in on that. And not trying to overbuild, not trying to overshoot and just trying to get stuff in front of other people and getting people to play it, give them the feedback and let the community kind of drive it. Like, yeah, I think they've been very good about, you know, doing a lot of that and more, and aligning it with their bigger vision, right?
Like, yeah. God, there's so many things that they've done incredibly well. Then again, like, you know, this is all them. Like I didn't do anything except for play it and say, oh my gosh, this is amazing guys. How can I give you money?
[00:43:42] Dylan Watkins: Well, it's incredible. Again, you feel it, you feel the magic. When you feel that magic, you know, there's something there and then you want to get involved there. And that can start at any stage, right? That can start just an idea. That can start as a prototype. That can start as a full blown product. Or that can start as like you made some success with like Beat Saber and now you're …
[00:43:56] Tipatat Chennavasin: Although, I will say with VR, it has to be – it's not just an idea. Like you said, it's on the execution, it's on the polish, right? Like there's so many other, you know, slicing games out there. There's so many other, you know, music games out there but no one had that kind of same kind of polished fidelity and brought it all together in that same way where, you know, Beat Saber, like, you know – I feel like knowing, you know, again – and I think a lot of this is saying like, don't try to do too much, but just honing in and perfecting certain parts of this. I think that's the key to success right now in VR.
[00:44:30] Dylan Watkins: You're totally right. It starts with getting a really clear vision on what do you want, what do you want and why do you want it? And then what about these things – what about VR makes it incredibly awesome, and awesome and different than any other technology that's come up before it? Now, how do we take what's awesome about VR, what you're passionate about and where you're trying to go and how do we put that together inside a soup to make our own dish and then that thing comes out with the execution. You try that, and then you can have magic. But it's like coming along those paths, but they had a clarity of a vision, but then they have the executional shops, which is it's rare to stack on top of each other. So I completely agree with that.
What are your thoughts around horizons? And what are your thoughts around that suit space? I've been in there and I've floated around there a little bit. What are your thoughts on them? And, you know, the Oculus's – or Facebook's tendency to go into these different social media domains and virtual reality being the new social media, what do you think is – what's your take on that? What's your feelings about that? Where do you see that going?
[00:45:35] Tipatat Chennavasin: I mean honestly, there's no surprise, right? Like, absolutely. Like, why is Facebook doing this? Like, yes, they want to control the hardware, but they want to control the software that lives on top of it too. And, you know, they want to invest in the metaverse. They want to create their own version. And, you know, they've been doing a lot of experiments in social VR, you know, way before horizons, right? And they've had some really interesting visions that were very different from what other people were doing at first. And then, you know, there's part of me that's like, you know, I'm a little disappointed that it's kind of come around to say, oh, it looks a lot like, you know, Rec Room and VRChat, but at the same time, it's like, if that's working, of course you would want to follow that. So you're not trying to reinvent the wheel, right?
And I think for them to say, hey, can we, you know, take an experience and refine it and make it more accessible? You know, I think fundamentally that's what Facebook did, right? Like they didn't invent social networks, right? Like, they took Friendster and Hi5 and it's like, why don't we make a version of that that works better for more people, that's more accessible, that's easier to use, you know, take away some of the craziness and polish it and refine it, right? So in a way I'm like, oh yeah, this makes a lot of sense, right? Like, this is exactly what Facebook should do, but at the same time, it's like, you know, this is a very hard problem to solve and we're not close – and again, they're just in beta, I've got to try it. And I think, you know, there's some good thinking in there. There's some weird thinking in there and, you know, definitely happy to like dive down the rabbit hole about a deeper critique.
But you know, what I think is interesting is like, I think, you know, two things I think have to happen to make this kind of thing work – well, a lot of things, but two things stick out in my mind. One, this is what I think Rec Room did really well was they had their own platform games that were really, really good. Great examples of what is possible in their, you know, "metaverse", right? And, you know, those games were great, right? Like the Frisbee golf, the, you know, the physics engine and the Frisbee golf felt great. Like throwing something just felt good, right? But then, you know, the paintball and then the quest and all these doing activities, right? So I felt like they had a good sense of like things that you want to do and it let people kind of ease into UGC where you start with mods and remixing as opposed to building from scratch, right? So I think that's part of it.
And then the next part is like the tools that people have to create stuff and how do you make those tools feel really good. And, you know, the one thing I feel is really disappointing is like, you know, Oculus has experimented a lot in tools like Medium and Quill for creating and being creative. And, you know, again, there's some technical limitations about what would be possible to make those UGC tools, but those are phenomenal tools and I wish, and again, I know why this couldn't happen from a technical reason, but from a design standpoint though, it's like there's this beautiful language of creation in VR that Tilt Brush, Medium, Quill have all kind of demonstrated.
And I wish that that building in the metaverse in Horizons or any, you know, VR felt more like that and leveraged the great art scene of creators that are being created. Instead of having to go back and then use these like really clunky polygon, unlimited polygon tools. I mean, kind of like Left Field, but I don't know if you've got to try Dreams from Media Molecule on the PlayStation and PlayStation VR.
[00:48:49] Dylan Watkins: Haven't tried that.
[00:48:50] Tipatat Chennavasin: But that has the best UGC tools out there right now. And again, if you look at the stuff that people are creating, like it is professional and like on a next level, like, I'm like, oh my God, like that looks just like legit. A real game, a real animation, real 3D art. Like it's not like a dumb down version. Like, I don't want to say dumb down. Like I don't want to be dismissive of the great work that's being done in these other platforms, but I feel like it's not limited, right? Like, I feel like again, if you're thinking blank canvas and unlimited imagination, you know, a lot of it is because you know, the underlying infrastructure, you know, they've been working on Dreams for like 10 years and it uses like, you know, SDFs and like, you know, exotic technology. That's not like, you know, again, you know, not the polygons that everyone's kind of used to. And so there's a lot of new thinking that has to be done around that. But man, it is just so crazy cool.
So I feel like for me, my dream metaverse – and what's holding Dreams back was that it wasn't social. And again, this could be part of the underlying technology. Like it wasn't real time multiplayer. And so you couldn't, you know – so I feel like if someone had that kind of tool set an underlying infrastructure of Dreams, but in a social environment in VR and building something, you know, again with the gesture controls was just as natural as playing with Legos, you know, that's it, like that's going to, you know, be the superpowered metaverse that I think is going to be the killer app of, you know, VR.
[00:50:15] Dylan Watkins: Yeah. And just for clarity, UGC means user generated content. So anybody that has tool sets that they want to be able to create, because you can create in all these worlds. I mean there's from Google Blocks, which is probably one of the simplest ones ever, just –
[00:50:28] Tipatat Chennavasin: Which is actually one of my favorites. Unfortunately, it's kind of discontinued now.
[00:50:32] Dylan Watkins: Oh, is it now?
[00:50:33] Tipatat Chennavasin: Yeah. Like, yeah, it hasn't been updated in many years and then, you know, is connected to Poly and then Poly's actually going down, I think end of June is when they're officially shut down, but you can't upload to Poly. But yeah, no, it was great.
[00:50:44] Dylan Watkins: It was great while we had it, while we could enjoy it. Yeah. I remember teaching at one of the hackathons at MIT. I was like, guys, you're a developer? Don't try doing anything else. Just papapapapa. It's like a simplistic thing to get started versus, I mean, you're looking at something like Amaya or these other types of tools that are what you, you know, the high end stuff that takes more effort. But people, we will get there.
Virtual reality is a constant thing of, oh, you have a five-pound bag. Let's shove 10 pounds of crap in it. Oh, you have a 10-pound bag, let's put in 15. And so, you know, as we're getting through these things, you know, there will be a point where, you know, something like Dream and the other ones where they're going to be able to stream the data off of some sort of Amazon servers that allows you to come down so that everybody can do it in real time because we're blowing things through the 5G network. Like all that stuff's coming, it's all going to be here at some point. But being someone who's in the VR space, you have a vision of how far out you can see, like maybe you can see out five years and it gets a little fuzzier at 10 and 15 and 30, who knows, right? Elon Musk neurolinking the brain or something like that. Who knows?
But like as you come along these steps and you try these things out, your vision, not only you can see farther out, but you can also see a bit clear as you go out from here because from trying these experiences from the beginning to now. What do you see on the horizon? No pun intended. What do you see on the horizon? Or what do you see in the future coming up for these types of technologies? What are the ones like Dreamland's one of those types of content creation tools? What are the other areas and sectors and things that you see that are, are real big opportunities or things that have yet to really be explored?
[00:52:25] Tipatat Chennavasin: Sure. I mean, honestly, there's an infinite amount of things left to be explored. We can talk for a whole day.
[00:52:31] Dylan Watkins: How about one that excites you?
[00:52:32] Tipatat Chennavasin: Yeah. Okay. Actually, this is one I want give a warning about. Like, I feel like right now there's a lot of excitement for, you know, AR glasses and I'm excited for AR glasses, right? But I think, you know, you talk to most people and you're like, it's for consumer AR glasses. It's still a long time away. And, you know, I think the biggest, like, I think VR and what we've experienced with VR, what we've learned from VR should inform us about, you know, what's going to make sense and what's really going to work for AR. And I feel like there's a lot of people, you know – and I love that people are putting stuff out there and trying different things. So I don't want to be like, hey, no, this is going to be terrible. Don't even look at it. But I'm just saying, hey, hold your expectations. Or just, you know, be real realistic about your expectations, but then think too.
Like for me, VR and AR right, fundamentally it's not just about what you see, it's how you interact, right? And this is why, like, for me, like why 3DoF VR never took off, right? Why mobile phone VR never took off, right? And this is why like mobile AR hasn't taken off, right? And it's because it's not just seeing an immersive world, but it's also being able to interact with it in a natural way, right? And so having six degrees of freedom, head tracking, but also hand tracking and being able to manipulate the world in a way that is natural, makes sense, is intuitive. That's so powerful.
And so, you know, like we look back at VR and you're like, okay, the 3DoF VR with their like 3DoF controllers wasn't successful in the market, you know, develop – and by success, I don't want to say like how many units shipped, I want to say, did it build an ecosystem where developers were making millions of dollars in revenue and that didn't happen, right? And so even there were some 6DoF headsets that had no 6DoF controllers, that had 3DoF controller. So there was like, the original VIVE Focus and the Daydream, there was a version of the Daydream that was put out that had 6DoF and okay, it's 6DoF tracking, but only for the head, not for the hands.
And so again, it was what you could see, but not what you can interact. And those products were, you know, dead in the market and no one knows about them or thinks about them now. But then of course, you know, when the Quest came out, six degrees tracking in the head and the hands in a great form factor, you know, portable, untethered and at a ridiculously crazy price point, you know, VR really took off.
And so when people are like saying, hey, you know, there are AR headsets that are coming out and then you're like, oh, okay. And people are like, oh, the FOV isn't that great. Or, oh, the resolution should be better. I'm still always like, what's the input? And if I can't interact with a hologram as naturally as, you know, playing with Legos or like, you know, picking up an apple, like, is that really going to be useful? Is that going to be functional enough for developers to create apps that will generate, you know, real revenue, real retention and engagement? I'm very skeptical from the lessons that we have in VR. And so, yeah.
[00:55:34] Dylan Watkins: And just note on that. I do want you to continue, but note on that, the only thing I've ever seen with augmented reality is if you go to aug conference anywhere else, augmented reality is really enterprise solution based stuff. And why is that? Because really it's all things that you have to do. Not because you want do it, because it's necessary. And the real value add from that is what do you have? You have what, remote expert assistance, someone telling you to cut the blue wire, not the red wire. You have XR collaboration or AR collaboration, where you have multiple people in an environment, which can basically also be done with VR, but better.
And then thirdly, you have data overlays to where, if you hold up a wine bottle, it will give you all the ratings in the wine bottle of everyone who's thumbed it up or thumbs it down. Those are really the only major value sets inside of those and none of those – people have really haven't figured out a way to make that entirely fun, other than Pokemon Go, where they basically had a game of fly the planet and create this whole scavenger hunt around the world to make that, and that novelty, you know, blew our mind to what was possible. And then it turned it into an experience where basically the world became your virtual reality, augmented reality environment that you played in. And since then, even like, you know, Wizards of Harry Potter was a flop by comparison because it's still like, there's not that, you know, you can't find the fun and you don't feel like you have as much – you don't lose yourself as much in the environment and you don't really, it's not a thing.
[00:56:50] Tipatat Chennavasin: I'm glad you brought up Harry Potter and Pokemon Go. And I'm a huge fan of Pokemon Go, a huge fan of the antic and the work they're doing. But I always push back on, like, you know, is, Pokemon Go AR? You know, it's location based gaming. But what I think is actually more interesting is what we've learned since the pandemic. So Pokemon Go has made more money during the pandemic than it's ever made.
[00:57:12] Dylan Watkins: Really?
[00:57:13] Tipatat Chennavasin: A lot of it is because they turned off a lot of the location based features that limited how much you could play. And so when people are like, oh, is Pokemon Go an example of AR? And like, well, if we look at the revenue, I think a strong argument could be made that AR held or location based gaming held back Pokemon's full potential. And that the potential of the Pokemon IP for a mobile game is just way bigger. And that, you know, again, if they weren't limited by having to explore the world and that they could play from the comfort of their own home, as much as they want, then they would've monetized better and they would've made more money.
[00:57:47] Dylan Watkins: That's interesting. Well, it's almost like a food truck. It was more of a marketing play where you saw hundreds of people in the streets. You're like, what is that? And then that spread because no other game do you have hundreds of people in the streets. So more like a food truck gets awareness by being out in the space, then people know about it and then they go back and they build a restaurant or whatever else, that's the same type of thing. So you're right on that one. But that's the only one that I have when I'm thinking of fun games or names …
[00:58:09] Tipatat Chennavasin: You're absolutely right. I mean there are a bunch of other location based games, like using some of the biggest IP from Harry Potter, Jurassic Park, you know, The Walking Dead and none of them really like, you know, had huge impact in the market in a meaningful way. But, you know, again, I do feel like a lot of this is also like mobile AR where you're like, hey, I'm looking at, you know, holograms in the world, but still interact with them in a 2D screen that it's like how the mouse and the keyboard or the game pad is the wrong interface for VR.
[00:58:35] Dylan Watkins: Yes.
[00:58:36] Tipatat Chennavasin: You know, a touch screen is still the wrong interface to really unlock the power of AR. And so, you know …
[00:58:42] Dylan Watkins: So with that, what are you looking at now? So we know that AR is not a thing and depending on the input field and what do you have, I mean, you want to have …
[00:58:49] Tipatat Chennavasin: Well, and again, we've been talking about consumer AR you know, and like you said, there are a bunch of actual, real AR uses, especially in enterprise. And of course, you know, using AR headsets for the enterprise, which are very expensive, but, you know, the government just, you know, gave Microsoft a $22 billion fund, you know, contract that essentially is saying, yeah, like AR is absolutely the future, right? But unwinding that and like, you know, what are we looking at? I mean, honestly, we're still looking for these driver applications, whether they be games, you know, social applications, you know, really anything that we think makes sense. But what's really interesting is like, you know, the market's changed now. There's a pretty huge, well, relatively big consumer install base of VR that we've never seen before in the history of time.
And, you know, like now apps, like fitness apps and other things, you know, beyond just gaming makes a lot of sense. And I think we're going to even see more and more different types of apps, right? So I still think, you know, gaming, but when we're talking about like what type of gaming I do look for, again, it's not about saying, hey, can we build a AAA, you know, Fortnight competitor, or, you know, like something like that. I'm like, no, no, no. Who's thinking about core game mechanics that really are native to VR that you can't play anywhere else that you have to play and experience? And again, who's really thinking about like things that are really kind of, you know, maybe like, oh, hey, like, I didn't know if that'd be good, but then when you play it, you're like, oh my gosh, this is amazing. And I can't put this down, you know? And I feel like I love experiencing that again, right? Like you're like, oh yeah, it's like hits me lightning. You're like, oh yeah, They're onto something here and, you know, it's amazing.
And, you know, even on the enterprise side too, like I look for things, right, okay, not just who's saving money, right? Like that's important, but who's doing the impossible, right? Like, you know, again, on the healthcare side, you know, we invest in a company called Vivid Vision who is actually strengthening people's eyes using VR and you know, people always like, oh, VR, is it bad for your eyes? And I'm like, well, here's a company that's actually using VR technology to improve people's eyes, curing people of their, you know, diplopia or lazy eye, right? And showing, you know, that you can strengthen your eyes using this VR as a training tool. So like, I feel like what's really interesting is for them, you know, the current treatment is like looking at a piece of paper and like, look and physically like moving your eyes around or like playing an iPad game. And that treatment only works for juveniles, like only effective for kids. And it's like, you know, again, again, it's not like even super effective, right? So they're more effective than the current treatments for kids, but then they can actually treat adults. And so there's a whole population that were, you know, untreatable except for the ones that could do some surgery, but now here's a non-surgical way to, you know, cure people.
And so thinking, okay, yeah, like what can VR be used for that's never been kind of done before, hasn't been really accessible but can, you know, change people's lives, right? Like, I think at the end of the day that like, that's a lot of the stuff that we're looking for.
[01:01:49] Dylan Watkins: That's epic. Well, on that note, so one of the areas that I've been highly interested in a lot of the work that I've been doing recently, and I think we're going to dive into this point while we're here, is really looking at – what I think is being birthed now is what I call the transformational economy. There is a thing being birthed right now, where you're using VR and entertainment to come together in a way that actually it's not only fun, but helps you be better. It helps you lose weight. It helps you lose your fear of heights. It helps your eyesight get better. It helps you, and in a way that's so engaging and so fun that you really kind of lose yourself. And you don't realize that that's actually changing who you are in a way to actually get you to where you want to go. And like the like fear of heights or any of those other things. What is your thoughts around transformational VR? What are your thoughts around this kind of entertainment meets helps you be better stuff? Do you have any thoughts on that kind of things because I feel it's kind of what you're talking about.
[01:02:40] Tipatat Chennavasin: Yeah.
[01:02:41] Dylan Watkins: I haven't really heard too many people talk about this space too much.
[01:02:44] Tipatat Chennavasin: No, absolutely. I mean, I think fundamentally, right, like the idea of like, you know, not only will this get you more, you know, more engaged, but can this be beneficial for your health or for your mental health. Like all that stuff is I think key, but what I, think is really important though, too, is how do we make it effective? And I think there is a way of saying, you know, like – like for me, like Beat Saber is the most effective like fitness VR game. And that, you know, again, thinking back, it's like, well, yeah, you could do other exercises, you know, better that would work you out better. But the idea is like, the game is so fun that you'll play it for those hours, right? And that you forget, and you're not, you know, you're not thinking you're exercising. It's almost like, what if there's someone who invented ice cream that was good for you? Like, oh my God, right? To me, that's like that's super sense, the Holy Grail, right?
So it's like, I feel like, you know, like, there's so many people that, okay, no. Okay, yeah, VR is great for fitness. We're going to build this specific fitness game and that's a great idea. It's good. I don't want to knock them. But for me I'm always like, oh my gosh, it's more fascinating where it's like, oh my gosh, Beat Saber is so good. And it's getting these results like unintentionally, but they're real results and they're huge. And it's like, that's what you kind of lean into. And it's almost like the kind of way too. Like now they're using Angry Birds to teach physics in classrooms or they're using Minecraft for education where you're like, okay …
[01:04:01] Dylan Watkins: Oh, that's cool.
[01:04:01] Tipatat Chennavasin: You know, it's like start with something fun and amazing and then add like the health or the good transformative benefits on top of it, I think makes a lot of sense because again, I think if you focus on just the health benefits in the core, it's like, are you really going to get a lot of people to adopt it and to do it? And if you're not like getting that fundamental – especially like hooking into that really great fun factor, like finding the fun to make it something that people want to continue to do, I think then it'll become a chore and then it won't be as compelling or effective.
[01:04:36] Dylan Watkins: You are a hundred percent right. And that's my whole theory around Burning Man. Like Burning Man itself, like have you ever been – I don't know if you've ever been in the Burning Man?
[01:04:44] Tipatat Chennavasin: I've only been to the virtual one that they did last year.
[01:04:46] Dylan Watkins: Okay. So it's similar, similar.
[01:04:47] Tipatat Chennavasin: No, no, no.
[01:04:50] Dylan Watkins: But you look at it, it's like, okay. The whole thing with like getting better at something is generally you like the result, you hate the process, right? And it's like it's boring. It's like that. And so many like education, entertainment or other things in that space, they're not fun. They are work. And then they throw what people that don't have experience with gamification call gamification points, levels, and badges, right? They're like points, levels and badges, but sweep the floor, do the dishes. And you're like, this is not fun. This is terrible. Versus having something that's so compellingly fun, but then the byproduct of the activity is the transformation. Jumping off the edge of the roof, just to see if you can survive was the fun part. The byproduct was the losing the fear of falling from that. And so I think you're a hundred percent right. The same thing why like Disney and all those other things back in the day would make amazing movies that would give you a little tear and that kind of stuff and then there might be a lesson put in there. But if you have it the other way around, you'll check it out once and then it's just it's like the, what do you call that thing? The trough of disillusionment. When you look at the faces and they look too …
[01:05:59] Tipatat Chennavasin: Yeah, uncanny valley.
[01:06:00] Dylan Watkins: Uncanny valley, right? You're like, you're trying to trick me. You're trying to make me, I don't believe you. And you're like, you don't want to do it versus like, you know, a shiny little puppet. It's like, hey, nice to see you, want to have some fun? You're like, cool. I get it. I get it. You're fake. Let's have a good time.
So I think you're totally right on that point, focusing on the fun first and having the other thing be the byproduct. Otherwise, if you make it into work, nobody wants to do work. We ideally want to play. Like very much like you're playing right now. The energy I get from you and this conversation is you're not working. You're like, oh, I got to go try this other core mechanic from this company. And ugh, this is how like – the energy that you get to carry on is from the joy and the byproduct is making the money of everything else in any investment.
[01:06:44] Tipatat Chennavasin: I like your way of putting it, but yeah, I think it's tough though. Like, you know, after trying, you know, your like 10th bad demo in a row that kind of makes you sick because it's not hitting performance, you know, it can be tough sometimes.
[01:06:56] Dylan Watkins: Yeah.
[01:06:57] Tipatat Chennavasin: Honestly. But I am lucky to have this job. And again, I've been an entrepreneur and I know how tough it is out there. And so, you know, I'm always trying to think about through that lens of, okay, what was it like when I was an entrepreneur talking to investors and, you know, trying to make sure I can give real feedback and, you know, be helpful, even if I don't invest? I think, you know, that's, you know, a lot of what my partner Marco has taught me too. Like, you know, how do we add value in this ecosystem? How do we, you know, be good partners? How do we be the best, you know, that we could do for the whole ecosystem and not just, you know, focused on our portfolio and you know, what we're trying to do? But, you know, just again, I think when we look at, you know, what's possible, you know, how we want to spend our time because we have, you know, finite time on this rock, you know, what can we do that's impactful and valuable and helpful?
And you know, I've been very fortunate in my career, but I've had lots of ups and downs, you know, lots of learnings. You know, most of the startups I was at, pretty spectacular failures. And so I feel very fortunate now to be in a position where I can, you know, hopefully give some advice based off of the hard learnings and lessons I've had and you know, try to be supportive in this, you know – and again, it is that weird thing where, you know, you're like, everyone's like, oh yeah, like, you know, VR is taking off, everyone's going to be making money. No, it's still hard. Like that's the thing people forget is just like, you know, in general, startups are tough, no matter what, you know, ecosystem, no matter, you know, what technology stack you're using, right? Like trying to be a startup, you know, nine out of 10 fail. Like, you know, it's definitely not – there's no guarantees, no one deserves or gets to do, you know, no. Yeah, there's no entitlements here. Everyone has to work their butts off and there's still no guarantee it's going to work.
[01:08:39] Dylan Watkins: No. Wait, that's funny. A lot of people look at like success like pregnancy. They turn to you and go congratulations, but they don't realize how many times you had to get screwed for that to happen.
[01:08:51] Tipatat Chennavasin: Nice. Nice.
[01:08:52] Dylan Watkins: But it's true. It really is. You don't do it, but you have a passion for it. You have to have something that keeps you going and at the same time and correct me if I'm wrong here. Because I had the – here's my personal experience on some of these pieces. You get your mind blown with the DK1 or DK2. You're like, oh my God, anything's possible. You try a bunch, you get sick a bunch. You start to lose that momentum. And then all of a sudden I hit social. I had that magic moment, like in Rec Room. I'm like, oh my God, anything's possible again. And then you start to lose things again, but then you find something else that hits you. Like it could be the creation with the Dreams, and the place of VR and you go, oh my God, it's amazing again. And then you get jaded a bit and you're almost like seeking that next mind blowing experience, one could be to help them and aid them and help them along the path. But the other one is it reignites that fire in your soul, that magic, that discovery of being a kid and coming across that thing that you weren't expecting and then mind being blown, I feel like that's also a part of it.
So yeah, there is some suffering with having to entertain anybody, but there is that one when you try that headset and you're like, wait a second. Wait a second. And so, am I on with that?
[01:09:58] Tipatat Chennavasin: Yeah, yeah, no, no. Absolutely. I think there's definitely that sense of like, okay, oh my gosh, like that this idea of, you know, like when you're designing something, you know, who are you designing it for? And also too, like, are you learning, are you trying other things that are out there and are you being informed by what's out there? I think this is what's good for people that are coming to it now where, you know, again, you have so much to learn from both from the successes and the failures, right? And so, you know, like, I always think like people that were doing this without a net, you know, without any kind of, you know, former – without a Beat Saber or without a, you know, Job Simulator or Rec Room to kind of show, oh, hey, this works, this doesn't work, you know, I think that was so much tougher.
And now it's like, okay, now we see the super hots. We see these other things. And we're like, okay, this works, this doesn't work. Like, God, there's so much learning out there that, you know, there's so many people that are new to this that are still kind of like, oh, well, I don't know. And what I think of too, like when I think of like a founder and a founder mindset, like when I show people like, or when I talk to people about VR and they'll be like, oh yeah, I've tried it. There's nothing. I've really – you know, there's nothing I want to play yet on it. Or, you know, none of those stuff looks like it's for me, I'm like, okay, cool. But they're obviously not a founder, not a creator because the person that sees that and says, this is the opportunity to create that thing that I don't see that I think will be fantastic, right? Like that like fine line of like, oh, I'm not interested because people haven't already created what I want versus, oh, hey, this is the opportunity to create what I want on this amazing canvas that anything is possible.
[01:11:31] Dylan Watkins: So just to hop on that one. So I mentioned a little bit before about the we're making a VR eSport team. The way that happened is I was in a room with a dude, a very successful entrepreneur dude. He just got the Quest headset and he's just like, man, you know, this is great. He's like, but there isn't what I want to see. There's something I want – I'm like, I was like – and he is like, I want to do a multiplayer da, da, da. I was like, yeah, that's – I can do that for you. And he is amazing human, got that entrepreneur mindset. And so we invented a whole new locomotion mechanic that I guarantee you've never seen before. Maybe I'm wrong, Tipatat, but at some point, we'll get you into the beta test and show you. But that he had that mindset, that entrepreneur mindset where anything's possible. He didn't see what was out there. And so he created what he wanted to, based on the whole, like, you know, like it's possible. We can figure it out, just got to put in the time and find that fun and find that magic.
But the people that have that like, no, it's not here yet. I got to have those. I got to have the Alyx Half-Life everything before it's ready, like they'll never be able to integrate and innovate and they won't find that. So you both need to try the things and have the belief that what you want isn't out there yet, and you got to be willing to go for it, and let that magic because you can't always predict it. You've kind of got to step into it, you know? So yeah, so love it. At some point, we'll get you into that thing.
[01:12:53] Tipatat Chennavasin: Awesome. I look forward to it, man.
[01:12:55] Dylan Watkins: Coming towards the end here because you've been more than gracious with your time. What advice would you give young and up and comings? Let's just say that they don't know anything. Maybe they just bought a Quest headset, you know? It's like, you know, for us, when you get the Nintendo, when you're a kid, you wrap your arm, it's Christmas day and you start to cry. They just got it. Maybe they're a young kid. They're not technical. They're not anything. They get into it. They try it out, minds blown. They want to get into this. They want to get involved. They want to make stuff and do stuff, but they want, you know, be a VR entrepreneur in the space. What advice would you give to them? Just starting out in right now, in this day and time? What would you say?
[01:13:38] Tipatat Chennavasin: Well, I'd say a lot, but two things. Like one is try everything, right? Try everything. And then what I would say too, is prototype your ideas in Rec Room or in VR chat or in Dreams, right? Like there are these interesting tools or like, even if you don't know 3D modeling, if you don't know, you know, Unity, there are other ways to at least test out some of these ideas that you have and put them in front of other people and see if it sticks. See if it's interesting. You know, I feel like the barrier to entry to be a creator in VR has never been lower. And I love that. And I love, you know, to see the creativity that people are doing. And there's no gatekeepers, you know, like you don't need a lot of money to do something like that, and anyone can do it and make something amazing. So make something is really the key thing here is what I'm saying is like, you know, be a creator, make something.
The other thing I'd say too is like, you know, there are a lot of people that are like, hey, you know, I love you. I think it's really interesting. And they're like, I want to do a startup. And it's like, you know, like being a founder, it's tough, it's rough. And you know, like, I would say it's not for everyone at certain points in your life. And, you know, I would say, you know, if you're really interested or passionate about VR, you know, think about joining the startups that already exist, or the big companies are already, you know, doing big things and doing interesting work.
And so you're like, okay, I'm passionate about healthcare and VR. Oh, I got to do a VR startup now. It's like, no, there's enough VR healthcare startups are looking for good people that you could join them and think about like, you know, think big picture too. Like, don't think, oh, okay, anyone can do a startup. I'm just going to run and just do the startup. Like for me, I was like, when I want to do my mobile game startup, I've like, oh, I've been a game artist. Yeah. I've been in the game ministries, but I've never been a, you know, CEO. I've never been a project manager. I don't know much about, you know, retention engagement metrics, like how to run the business side of it.
So when I went, like when I decided I wanted to do a mobile game startup, my first thing wasn't to raise money and build the demo and go do it. I was like, okay, I want to spend six months to a year at a real game company, learn the ins and outs of the business side and try to understand that and try to up my skills and then go out and then do this right, right? Like, so in those ways, just thinking like, you know, personal development, like, okay, what are the things that you're lacking that will make you more successful? And how do you add that as quick as you can? And some of it could be okay, no, you know what, maybe you have all you need and maybe you can do it and jump into a start. But, you know, I've gotten so many pitches from people that I feel like, you know, could have gone through that, like, oh, okay. You know what, like maybe jumping and doing your first startup at this, you know, and founding it yourself might not be the best path for you. And maybe, you know, it is better to go work at a Facebook, and also too, not just to learn, but to build your network of not just who you're going to work with when you start up your own team, but also who could be potential investors in you and like, you know, angel investors when you're first trying to get this off the ground.
So I feel like, you know, I think it's really trendy for people to come like out of school, anyone can do a startup, right? But you know, I think at the same time, you know, it's like, okay, that could be a path, but also too, like working for the big companies, learning, building your network, you know, upping your skills, all these other things are so valuable that, you know, I would think about that as well.
[01:16:57] Dylan Watkins: Totally right. Yeah. Looking at, you know, if you want to change the world, change yourself, look at what skills you need to get to where you need to get to, figure out what's the best way to get there. Be patient with yourself. You can do it. There's a bunch of different ways to up level your skills with those stuff. You join a big studio, because you can kind of see the ecosystem and figure out what you want to do different or join a small startup and see what they're doing and figuring out what you want to do. Join an incubator, find out why that sucks and go and do something different. There's a bunch of different ways to get those skill sets, but trying to like, you know, have that grand thing out the gate without the skills needed is, you know, you're going to learn and burn a little bit along the way. So I think it's fantastic advice.
Is there any last things you'd like to say, any parting words before you let people know how they could find out more about what you do or get ahold of you?
[01:17:47] Tipatat Chennavasin: Sure. Well, first let's get that out of the way. I'm super easy to find online. You know, you can follow me on Twitter. I'm @Tipatat, T-I-P-A-T-A-T. We have a website, you know, TheVRFund.com, you know, check it out. Of course you can always email me, I'm tipatat@TheVRFund.com. And, you know, honestly, you know, happy to talk to anyone at any stage, you know, anyone that's in this space, you know, happy to give you perspective, you know, happy to tell you why I won't invest in what you're working on, or at least not yet. But you know, more importantly too, like just again, trying to hopefully, you know, direct people to good opportunity, you know, or connections in terms of like, okay, what can they be thinking about? What should they be aware of or who the partner with?
You know, I think both the thing I would say the most is like, you know, again, like right now is the time and, you know, the cost to create a startup, you know, I told you not to do a startup now, but the cost to build something, right? Like don't worry about startup, just the cost to build something is really just your time. And, you know, like, I think back about, you know, again, this demo that changed my life, you know, Unity was free. I stole assets. Okay. I did make stuff though. I did make some 3D models.
[01:19:01] Dylan Watkins: You innovated.
[01:19:02] Tipatat Chennavasin: I animated. And I was fortunate enough to put something junky out there that attracted real professional talent that said, hey, let's collaborate, right? And we took a chance on each other. Like I'd never met them before. Like we actually never physically met and we just communicated by text. I think we had a phone call at the end of the project to just wrap it up.
[01:19:20] Dylan Watkins: Wow.
[01:19:21] Tipatat Chennavasin: But I feel like this idea of like, you know, what you can create, like what one or two people can create now, you know, the tools that are available, especially with leveraging Rec Room or these existing platforms, you know, like gosh, it's never been a better time to be a creator and, you know, build something amazing. And don't stop until it's amazing.
[01:19:43] Dylan Watkins: Don't stop until it's amazing. Beautiful. Tipatat, you are a gem. I really appreciate your time, brother. This was super fun. This is going to be something I think people can listen to and get a lot from. So thank you so much for everything that you do and supporting the industry. And I forget how many demos you do a year. I forgot there was a huge number. I was like, how, how do you even do that in the amount of time? So thank you for however much VR sickness you've gotten to support the industry. We very much appreciate it. And I look forward to seeing you in virtual reality,
[01:20:21] Tipatat Chennavasin: I look forward to trying the awesomeness that you're working on. So let me know whenever that's ready. But no, thank you so much. It's been a great conversation. I feel like I got to go a lot deeper than I usually get to do and yeah, it's definitely, you know, one of those things where, you know, we've been at this for a while now, you know, thinking back about the first couple times we met and, you know, where we are now and how this industry's really grown. And I have to pinch myself. I can't believe like, oh my gosh, like it's here, it's happening. Everything that we've dreamed of, you know, it's finally coming to fruition and I'm just so excited to see, like, you know, some of the other creators that we've been in the trenches with and, you know, that've been around this, like, you know, it's really starting to pay off.
And, you know, just the only other thing I want to say is, you know, again, just support developers, buy the games, try everything, you know, leave reviews, give comments, you know. Yeah. Just it's an exciting time. What are you playing right now? Is there anything that's really caught your eye?
[01:21:09] Dylan Watkins: Plane wise. Let's see what game I've been into. I was playing the Star Wars, Galaxy's Edge quite a bit. That one I was enjoying. Just kind of going through and just playing some of the mechanics. I played a little bit Sprint Vector. No, not Sprint Vector. I'm going to take that back. Hyper Dash.
[01:21:25] Tipatat Chennavasin: Hyper Dash. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:21:26] Dylan Watkins: Was doing some Hyper Dash for a bit. Checking out some of the new Rec Room stuff. And there was another one. I was playing the room a bit. It's been a while.
[01:21:37] Tipatat Chennavasin: No, that's great.
[01:21:38] Dylan Watkins: So those are some of the ones I've been kind of playing around with a bit and they're super fun. But you just keep, you kind of like pick them out and you try them for a little bit. You see what's interesting, what's engaging. But yeah, those are my main ones.
[01:21:49] Tipatat Chennavasin: Right now, I want to give a plug to Demeo, made by my good friend, Tommy and the team at Resolution Games. It's a turn-based tabletop, like D&D board game in VR, like D&D style board game in VR.
[01:22:00] Dylan Watkins: Oh, nice.
[01:22:01] Tipatat Chennavasin: Yeah, it's definitely one of those where people are like, ah, I don't know, like, you know, I want to, you know, be the person. I don't want to like control the little figurines, but you know, again, that social experience, it's magical. It's fun. I think they really nailed it. Yeah, I think it's a great game and I highly recommend it. I feel like there's so many good games. So this on the Quest and on Steam.
[01:22:20] Dylan Watkins: Okay. Got it. Got it. I haven't seen it yet. Okay.
[01:22:21] Tipatat Chennavasin: Yeah, yeah. Definitely worth checking out. So Demeo, D-E-M-E-O. And there's so many other great VR games out there too. I keep plugging, but I just want to give a special shout out to that because that's the one that I'm currently the most obsessed with.
[01:22:33] Dylan Watkins: Love it, man. I appreciate that. I remember the industry where, you know, the test tame demo was the only thing out there and now to kind of like come across this, there's a gem that I haven't tried out yet. So, thank you. And Tipatat, this has been a pleasure, man. I really appreciate your time, brother. Have a beautiful day and we'll see you soon, okay?
[01:22:50] Tipatat Chennavasin: All right. Thanks so much. Really enjoyed the conversation.
[01:22:51] Dylan Watkins: Thank you. Me too, brother. Me too. Bye now.
[01:22:58] Outro: Thank you for listening to the Heroes of Reality Podcast. Check out HeroesofReality.com for more episodes. While you're there you can also take the hero's quiz to find out what kind of hero you are, or if you have a great story and want to be on the podcast, tell us why your hero's journey will inspire others.
